Not speaking for John, but I don’t believe that would help because I believe 
that anything which
does not meet the definition of an “end user” is de fact an ISP.

Creating a clear definition of “ISP” would likely, instead, create a new 
category of organizations
which fit neither defined category and suddenly find themselves without any way 
to interact with
ARIN. I would not consider that to be an improvement.

It may be that adding a statement to policy that any organization which does 
not meet the strict
definition of “End User” is therefore considered an ISP for policy purposes.

Owen

> On Dec 6, 2015, at 13:03 , Jose R. de la Cruz III <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> John:
> 
> Thanks for the additional info. It looks like the problem brought forth in 
> the referenced document was never completely solved. Because an end user is 
> defined as "an organization receiving assignments of IP addresses exclusively 
> for use in its operational networks.", it is my opinion that the 
> "exclusively" part of the definition maybe the one creating some problems. In 
> the "large enterprises which may provide services to many entities of various 
> degrees of affiliation" example,  the exclusively part of the definition 
> should not apply. The question is, are these organizations actively involved 
> in the reassigning that IP space to their customers? 
> 
> Although no formal definition for ISP is included in the policy manual, an 
> ISP does not fit into the end user definition. Would a definition for ISP 
> provide a clear guidance in thesubject? How should hosting/cloud/cdn 
> providers be categorized?
> 
> José
> 
> On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 8:43 AM, John Curran <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> On Dec 4, 2015, at 6:48 AM, Jose R. de la Cruz III <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> 
>> RE: ARIN-2015-8
>> 
>> 4.     Should End-Users who want to be able to re-assign records simply be 
>> required to become ISPs?
>> --->No. Why should they? 
>> 
>> 5.     Should the ISP/End-User distinction be eliminated (which is a bigger 
>> discussion outside the scope of the current problem statement)?
>> ---> No. They are different type of business entities and should be serviced 
>> according to their needs.
> 
> I have no comment either way regarding the particular policy proposal under
> discussion, but would like to provide some background that may aid in further
> consideration of the question:
> 
> - The distinction between “end-user” and “ISP” is very clear in many cases, 
>   but not universally.  Examples where it is less clear include university and
>   college systems, large enterprises which may provide services to many 
>   entities of various degrees of affiliation (wholly-owned, partially-owned,
>   joint entity, business partner), hosting/cloud/cdn providers (where the line
>   between infrastructure and customer can be quite blurry at times), etc.
> 
> - The desire to between ISP and End-User (or visa-versa) may be driven
>    by fee or policy motivations, but we have seen an increase in end-users
>    who wish to re-assign blocks in order to have more accurate information
>    in the database regarding the actual address usage, particularly with 
>    respect to their geolocation data. 
> 
> Today ARIN tries to work with ISPs and end-users who wish to change 
> their categorization, but understandly we lack clear guidance for what 
> is becoming an increasingly blurry distinction.   For additional context,
> refer to the ARIN 31 Policy Experience Report (where this issue was 
> raised) - 
> https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdf
>  
> <https://www.arin.net/participate/meetings/reports/ARIN_31/PDF/monday/nobile_policy.pdf>
> 
> Thanks!
> /John
> 
> John Curran
> President and CEO
> ARIN
> 
> 
> 
> 
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