> On Oct 30, 2022, at 14:06, Matt Erculiani <[email protected]> wrote: > > First post on the PPML, please be gentle. Direct reply feedback is welcome. > > I have a general concern about a dedicated IP allocation for use with > experiments. If the block has ever been announced in the DFZ, it is likely > its reputation has been influenced by prior use. If valid results are > desired, a clean, never announced block would need to be assigned to the > research organization for each request. While I understand that ensuring the > validity of any research is "their problem", I don't think that 1 year > provides nearly enough time to research all bocklists, achieve removal, and > perform the experiment, particularly considering some blocklist admins are > difficult to engage.
A virgin IPv4 block is a rather laughable concept these days. I think that experimenters should know and understand the realities of the modern IPv4 world and thus design their experiments to take such things into account. Remember, this is a policy which has been on the books for a very long time (more than the 20+ years I’ve been involved in ARIN at least). These are just some tweaks mainly aimed at making it easier to understand and more in line with modern realities. > It's a really good idea in theory, but I don't think the practicality is > actually there. If anyone ever hijacks pieces of the research block, are > those going to be considered invalid for research purposes because they were > previously involved in malicious activity and are therefore "tainted"? The process for cleaning “tainted” blocks is reasonably well known. I don’t see this as any different from any other entity receiving a previously used block which might be tainted. > Basically, if the premise of the policy is doubtful, why would any editorial > changes be entertained? The policy has served the community well for a long time. As such, I have a hard time agreeing that the premise is doubtful. Owen > > -Matt > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 9:09 PM Nick Nugent <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> Thanks, Anita. Perhaps it would help to hear more about experimental >> activities like yours. >> >> What would - and this is a question addressed to the broader PPML - an >> exemplary experimental activity under Section 11 look like? Are there any >> real-world past examples that ARIN could share? >> >> Nick Nugent >> >> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 10:13 AM A N <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>> Nick - >>> That's a great catch. "technically sound within the meaning of ARIN’s >>> Policy Development Process" is hard to decipher. I think the sentence >>> should end after "technically sound". However "technically sound" is >>> different from "technically coordinated" and I believe they should both be >>> in there as requirements. Technically sound is a lightweight way to ensure >>> that an experiment (or set of experiments) needs a resource space and that >>> there is a reasoning behind the construction of the experiment. >>> Coordination ensures that if goes awry, the experimenter has thought of how >>> to mitigate damage. >>> >>> (I'm part of a group that runs a very large network testbed, and our >>> general process is similar: justify what you're doing, and tell us how >>> you'll mitigate effects on others.) >>> >>> Anita Nikolich >>> (wearing non AC hat) >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 8:23 PM Nugent, Nick via ARIN-PPML >>> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >>>> Thanks, Andrew. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Question: Do we need the following eligibility criterion? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * Demonstration to ARIN that the experimental activity is technically >>>> sound within the meaning of ARIN’s Policy Development Process; >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A few thoughts on it: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (1) It represents a new requirement (it’s not currently in Section 11) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (2) I’m not sure it makes sense to define “technically sound” by reference >>>> to the Policy Development Process. Section 4.2 of the PDP defines >>>> “technically sound” in a very narrow fashion that’s highly specific to >>>> public number administration—namely: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Support both conservation and efficient utilization of Internet number >>>> resources to the extent feasible. Policy should maximize number resource >>>> availability to parties with operational need. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Support the aggregation of Internet number resources in a hierarchical >>>> manner to the extent feasible. Policy should permit the routing >>>> scalability that is necessary for continued Internet growth. (Note that >>>> neither ARIN, nor its policies, can guarantee routability of any >>>> particular Internet number resource as that is dependent on the actions of >>>> the individual Internet operators.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> - Support the unique registration of Internet number resources. Policy >>>> should prevent to the extent feasible any unknown or duplicate use of >>>> Internet number resources that could disrupt Internet communications. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Presumably, these criteria would be irrelevant to many experimental >>>> activities. And in any event, these criteria seem more fitting for how >>>> ARIN administers public numbers than for how a private experiment is >>>> conducted. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (3) To the extent “technically sound” means that the experimental activity >>>> wouldn’t harm the operation of the internet, that requirement is already >>>> covered by the following criterion: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * Demonstration to ARIN that the experimental activity is technically >>>> coordinated in that consideration of any potential negative impact of the >>>> proposed experiment on the operation of the Internet and its deployed >>>> services has been considered, and a description of experimenter mitigation >>>> plans to contain any negative impacts has been provided. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Or am I thinking of experimental activities too broadly (or narrowly)? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Nick Nugent | Amazon.com >>>> Senior Corporate Counsel, Amazon Web Services >>>> Email: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: ARIN-PPML <[email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> On Behalf Of Andrew Dul >>>> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2022 8:07 AM >>>> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >>>> Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL][arin-ppml] Revised - Draft Policy ARIN-2022-8: >>>> Streamlining Section 11 Policy Language >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not >>>> click links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know >>>> the content is safe. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Updated markup and new version can be found here for your review. >>>> >>>> https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/pdf/NRPM-Section11-update-20221021.pdf >>>> https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/pdf/NRPM-Section11-update-20221021-clean.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Andrew >>>> >>>> On 10/26/22 10:44 AM, ARIN wrote: >>>> >>>> The following Draft Policy has been revised: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * ARIN-2022-8: Streamlining Section 11 Policy Language >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Revised text is below and can be found at: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/2022_8/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You are encouraged to discuss all Draft Policies on PPML. The AC will >>>> evaluate the discussion to assess the conformance of this Draft Policy >>>> with ARIN's Principles of Internet number resource policy as stated in the >>>> Policy Development Process (PDP). Specifically, these principles are: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * Enabling Fair and Impartial Number Resource Administration >>>> >>>> * Technically Sound >>>> >>>> * Supported by the Community >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The PDP can be found at: >>>> >>>> https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/pdp/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Draft Policies and Proposals under discussion can be found at: >>>> >>>> https://www.arin.net/participate/policy/drafts/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sean Hopkins >>>> >>>> Senior Policy Analyst >>>> >>>> American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Draft Policy ARIN-2022-8: Streamlining Section 11 Policy Language >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Problem Statement: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Section 11 of the NRPM contains a great deal of language that is either >>>> explicitly not policy, or is not impactful on ARIN's administration of >>>> Internet number resources for experimental allocations, or to the >>>> customers requesting said resources. A revision to transform Section 11 >>>> into a collection of policies for experimental allocations serves to make >>>> the Section more easily digested by the reader, and a more functional >>>> reference for customers and ARIN staff during experimental allocation >>>> requests. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Policy Statement: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Section 11 Overview >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Current text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11. Experimental Internet Resource Allocations >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ARIN will allocate Numbering Resources to entities requiring temporary >>>> Numbering Resources for a fixed period of time under the terms of >>>> recognized experimental activity. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "Numbering Resources" refers to unicast IPv4 or IPv6 address space and >>>> Autonomous System numbers. >>>> The following are the criteria for this policy: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Proposed text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11. Experimental Internet Resource Allocations >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ARIN will allocate Number Resources to organizations requiring temporary >>>> Number Resources for a fixed period of time under the terms of a >>>> recognized experimental activity. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Section 11.1 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Current text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11.1. Documentation of Recognized Experimental Activity >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A Recognized Experimental Activity is one where the experiment's >>>> objectives and practices are described in a publicly accessible document. >>>> It is a normal requirement that a Recognized Experimental Activity also >>>> includes the undertaking that the experiment's outcomes be published in a >>>> publicly accessible document at the end of the experiment. The conditions >>>> for determining the end of the experiment are to be included in the >>>> document. Applicants for an experimental allocation are expected to >>>> demonstrate an understanding that when the experiment ends, the allocation >>>> will be returned; a successful experiment may need a new allocation under >>>> normal policies in order to continue in production or commercial use, but >>>> will not retain the experimental allocation. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A "publicly accessible document" is a document that is publicly and openly >>>> available free of charges and free of any constraints of disclosure. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ARIN will not recognize an experimental activity under this policy if the >>>> entire research experiment cannot be publicly disclosed. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ARIN has a strong preference for the recognition of experimental activity >>>> documentation in the form of a document which has been approved for >>>> publication by the IESG or by a similar mechanism as implemented by the >>>> IETF. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Proposed text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11.1. Eligibility Criteria for Recognized Experimental Activity >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The eligibility criteria for a recognized experimental activity under this >>>> policy are: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The experiment’s description and objectives are published in a publicly >>>> accessible document, which for the purpose of this policy means that the >>>> document is readily available free of charges to the public, and free of >>>> any constraints of disclosure within one year after the end of the >>>> experiment; >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The experiment’s outcomes must also be published in a publicly accessible >>>> document; >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * Demonstration to ARIN that the experimental activity is technically >>>> sound within the meaning of ARIN’s Policy Development Process; >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * Demonstration to ARIN that the experimental activity is technically >>>> coordinated in that consideration of any potential negative impact of the >>>> proposed experiment on the operation of the Internet and its deployed >>>> services has been considered, and a description of experimenter mitigation >>>> plans to contain any negative impacts has been provided. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Retire Sections 11.2 and 11.3 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Section 11.4 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Current text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11.4. Resource Allocation Term and Renewal >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Numbering Resources are allocated for a period of one year. The >>>> allocation can be renewed on application to ARIN providing information as >>>> per Detail One. The identity and details of the applicant and the >>>> allocated Numbering Resources will be published under the conditions of >>>> ARIN's normal publication policy. At the end of the experiment, resources >>>> allocated under this policy will be returned to the available pool. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Proposed text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11.4. Resource Allocation Term and Renewal >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Number Resources are allocated for a period of one year under this >>>> policy. The allocation can be renewed on application to ARIN by providing >>>> information as to why an extension is necessary for a successful >>>> experiment. The resources allocated under this policy must be returned to >>>> ARIN as soon as the recognized experimental activity has ended. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Section 11.5 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Current text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11.5. Single Resource Allocation per Experiment >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ARIN will make one-off allocations only, on an annual basis to any >>>> applicant. Additional allocations to an organization already holding >>>> experimental activity resources relating to the specified activity outside >>>> the annual cycle will not be made unless justified by a subsequent >>>> complete application. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> It's important for the requesting organization to ensure they have >>>> sufficient resources requested as part of their initial application for >>>> the proposed experimental use. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Proposed text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11.5. Single Resource Allocation per Recognized Experimental Activity >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ARIN will make only one allocation per recognized experimental activity. >>>> An allocation may consist of multiple Number Resources if required to >>>> conduct the recognized experimental activity. Additional allocations to an >>>> organization already holding experimental Number Resources will not be >>>> made under this policy unless justified by a subsequent complete >>>> application relating to a different experimental activity. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Retire Section 11.6 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Section 11.7 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Current text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11.7. Resource Allocation Guidelines >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Numbering Resources requested come from the global Internet Resource >>>> space, do not overlap currently assigned space, and are not from private >>>> or other non-routable Internet Resource space. The allocation size shall >>>> be consistent with the existing ARIN minimum allocation sizes, unless >>>> smaller allocations are intended to be explicitly part of the experiment. >>>> If an organization requires more resources than stipulated by the minimum >>>> allocation size in force at the time of its request, the request must >>>> clearly describe and justify why a larger allocation is required. All >>>> research allocations must be registered publicly in whois. Each research >>>> allocation will be designated as a research allocation with a comment >>>> indicating when the allocation will end. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Proposed text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11.7. Resource Allocation Guidelines >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Number Resources requested shall come from the global Number Resource >>>> space, shall not overlap any currently assigned space, and shall not be >>>> from private or other non-routable Number Resource space. The allocation >>>> size shall be consistent with the existing ARIN minimum allocation sizes, >>>> unless smaller allocations are explicitly required due to the nature of >>>> the experiment. If an organization requires more resources than stipulated >>>> by the minimum allocation size in force at the time of its request, the >>>> request must clearly describe and justify why a larger allocation is >>>> required. All research allocations must be registered publicly in ARIN’s >>>> directory services. Each research allocation will be designated as a >>>> research allocation with a comment indicating when the allocation will end. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Section 11.8 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Current text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11.8. Commercial Use Prohibited >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If there is any evidence that the temporary resource is being used for >>>> commercial purposes, or is being used for any activities not documented in >>>> the original experiment description provided to ARIN, ARIN reserves the >>>> right to immediately withdraw the resource and reassign it to the free >>>> pool. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Proposed text: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> 11.8. Commercial Use Prohibited >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If there is any evidence that the temporary resource is being used for >>>> commercial purposes or is being used for any activities not documented in >>>> the original experiment description provided to ARIN, ARIN reserves the >>>> right to immediately withdraw the resource. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Retire Section 11.9 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Timetable for implementation: Immediate >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARIN-PPML >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>). >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>> Please contact [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any >>>> issues. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARIN-PPML >>>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected] >>>> <mailto:[email protected]>). >>>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>>> Please contact [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any >>>> issues. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARIN-PPML >>> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >>> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]>). >>> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >>> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >>> Please contact [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any >>> issues. >> _______________________________________________ >> ARIN-PPML >> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to >> the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>). >> Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: >> https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml >> Please contact [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any >> issues. > > > -- > Matt Erculiani > ERCUL-ARIN > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > Please contact [email protected] if you experience any issues.
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