I can not do anything about the past, I can only say I think that was wrong. And I'm happy to advocate to ensure that does not happen again to anyone else.
Unfortunately that is all I can do. And, sorry you had to go through that. Thanks. On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 19:59 Paul E McNary <[email protected]> wrote: > ARIN wouldn't accept my City, County, business licenses or my state > business IDs from Department of Revenue on a business that I started in > ,1979. Why? > Department of Revenue isn't good? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ryan Hamel <[email protected]> > To: David Farmer <[email protected]>, John Curran <[email protected]> > Cc: Preston Ursini <[email protected]>, [email protected] > Sent: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 19:38:51 -0500 (CDT) > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals > > David, > > I signed an agreement with RIPE NCC, have an account in their portal, and > had an ASN + IPv6 assignment... > > Kind regards, > > Ryan Hamel > ________________________________ > From: ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> on behalf of David Farmer > via ARIN-PPML <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2025 6:35:37 PM > To: John Curran <[email protected]> > Cc: Preston Ursini <[email protected]>; [email protected] < > [email protected]> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals > > Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care > when clicking links or opening attachments. > > First, my understanding is that individuals don't get resources from RIPE > either; Member Organizations do. You, as an individual, get resources from > an LIR that is a RIPE Member, and the LIR gets the resources from RIPE, > maintains the relationship with RIPE, and assigns them to you. As an > individual, your relationship is with the LIR, not RIPE, unless I'm > completely misunderstanding RIPE's policies and business practices. > > A similar arrangement could be facilitated by an LIR (also known as an > ISP) that is an ARIN Member Organization. That isn't as common a practice > here in the ARIN Region. ARIN has a lower barrier to entry and deals > directly with end-user organizations, but not end-users as individuals. > > Thanks. > > On Thu, Apr 17, 2025 at 6:51 PM John Curran <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> wrote: > Preston - > > I don’t think any of the present discussion has been predicated on fraud > concerns. > > (Note that ARIN currently has some extensive anti-fraud practices that > include various forms of government issued ID presentation and > verification.) > > Thanks, > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > American Registry for Internet Numbers > > > On Apr 17, 2025, at 7:39 PM, Preston Ursini <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Would I be correct in that there hasn’t been an actually policy proposal > submitted for this? > > I believe that whether or not this new policy were to be considered, that > a copy of a government issued identification document be submitted to the > person signing the Registration Services Agreement whenever an OrgID is > issued. This can help immensely in tracking down fraud which seems to be a > pillar concern. > > For simplicity sake, I’d also say in any such policy allowing an > Individual to obtain numbering assets simply be issued an OrgID just as > sole proprietors are as to minimize disruption to ARIN operations in > implementing this policy. > > > Preston Ursini > > > On Apr 17, 2025, at 6:28 PM, John Curran <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> wrote: > > Preston - > > That’s a reasonable question (“why an individual cannot be accepted as > they are generally the same legal entity…”) > > You’re right that a sole proprietorship is legally tied to the individual > behind it, but that doesn’t make it the same as issuing resources to > individuals. At the time of ARIN’s formation (and for a suibstantial > period before), number resources were issued to organizations. The old > netnumber.txt request forms made that clear, asking for “the organization > responsible for establishing the network” along with a postal address. That > model is what ARIN inherited when it was formed in 1997, and it’s what we > continue to operate under. > > While it’s true in theory that ARIN could adopt a model where it directly > serves individuals, this would represent a significant departure from the > registry model we inherited and have operated under for decades. Even > though individuals and organizations can both be “legal entities,” that > does not mean they are treated identically under law. For example, > companies that predominantly focus on serving businesses (often referred to > as B2B) are often subject to different laws, regulations, and tax policy > than those that hold themselves out to serve individuals. Thus, shifting to > a model that openly includes individuals could have significant unintended > implications for ARIN. > > That doesn’t mean it can’t be done, but it would be important to > understand the problem that such a change would solve. ARIN accepts > incorporated entities, DBAs, sole proprietors, etc.—because we know > networks are run by all kinds of operators. But in every case, we’re still > issuing to an organization, however minimal the structure might be. > > Thanks! > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > American Registry for Internet Numbers > > On Apr 17, 2025, at 2:09 PM, Preston Ursini via ARIN-PPML < > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > If a sole proprietorship is accepted, I am confused as to why an > Individual cannot be accepted as they are generally the same legal entity > unless it is an individual? > > There are over 20,000 political subdivisions within the United States when > you count cities, counties, townships, etc., all with their own rules when > it comes to business licenses and conducting business, trying to tie every > sole proprietorship down with a business license when one may not be > required in many of these jurisdictions seems strange at best. > > In general the law sees Corporations and Individuals as all in the same, > so I’m a little confused as to why ARIN would be ok with doing business > with a sole proprietor but not an "individual"? > > If the issue is fraud prevention, it seems like a better approach would be > tying all accounts regardless of whether it is a business/individual, with > a government issued identification document; the trend with having an > officer of a company sign an RSA seems to be a step in the direction in > tying real people to accounts; assuming the goal here is to ensure > accountability for resource allocation? > > > > Preston Ursini > > > On Apr 17, 2025, at 7:21 AM, [email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]> wrote: > > Send ARIN-PPML mailing list submissions to > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of ARIN-PPML digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: distributing resources for individuals > ([email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>) > 2. Re: distributing resources for individuals (John Curran) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 09:00:26 +0200 > From: "[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>" < > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > To: arin-ppml <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals > Message-ID: <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi John, > > A couple of questions on this: > > 1) There is a formal confirmation that this ?simple and ?inexpensive? > procedure is the same in all the ?areas? (states, whatever is te division > in each country) for all the service region countries of ARIN? > > 2) Are we sure that in all those areas/countries the cost of keeping that > ?status? (the one that is valid for ARIN), and I mean not only money, but > also recurrent paperwork (like for example if you need to present > quarterly/yearly tax reports, even if you don?t had economical activity), > is close to ?zero"? > > 3) As 1 and 2 above may change (a country law may decide that a > sole-proprietorship may be enforced to something else much more expensive > or cease that status), do it make sense that the policy and/or membership > documents ask for something that doesn?t depend on ARIN decisions, instead > of relaying in making sure that you provide ?real documents? and of course > a valid justification for the resources that you request (which is already > set in the policies for each type of resource)? > > Regards, > Jordi > > @jordipalet > > > El 17 abr 2025, a las 2:34, John Curran <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> escribi?: > > Ryan - > > Indeed. As both myself (and Bill Herrin) have pointed out a few times in > this discussion, ARIN already has flexibility in this regard and we do > have sole proprietorships that enter into agreements and obtain number > resources. Sole proprietorship works, DBA name registration works, > incorporation of a legal entity works ? hence the reason for further > discussion in order to gain a better understanding of the problem to be > solved. > > Thanks, > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > American Registry for Internet Numbers > > > On Apr 16, 2025, at 8:16?PM, Ryan Hamel <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> wrote: > > John, > > I echo David's point coming from California. My ARIN resources are under > my legal name, which was approved by the team that handles org tickets, and > the legal team. > > A sole proprietor without a DBA, can legally conduct business in several > states and potentially provinces too, and that also includes signing ARIN's > agreements. > > Kind regards, > > Ryan Hamel > From: ARIN-PPML <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> on behalf of David Farmer via ARIN-PPML < > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 4:58:48 PM > To: John Curran <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Cc: arin-ppml <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals > > Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care > when clicking links or opening attachments. > > John, > > The issue is in Missouri, Minnesota, and probably many other states; if > you are doing business under your own name and not a DBA, you don't need to > register with the state to operate a sole proprietorship. > > So, if ARIN procedures require a lookup with the Secretary of State, > effectively, that requires more than just operating as a business; it also > requires operating that business under a fictitious name, not under the > owner's name. > > Section 9 of the NRPM gives a lot of latitude for demonstrating that an > organization operates within the ARIN region. A similar amount of latitude > should be available to establish that an individual is acting as a business > and not an individual, even if the jurisdiction's laws and procedures don't > neatly align with ARIN procedures. > > Thanks > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 6:04?PM John Curran <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > wrote: > > > On Apr 16, 2025, at 6:02?PM, Paul E McNary <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>>> wrote: > > Originally > 12 years ago when I tried to get ARIN resources, I was greatly harmed by > this. > In Missouri at that time a Sole Proprietor did not have to register with > the Secretary of State. > ARIN would not issue resources unless they could verify you with Secretary > of State database. > We had a State Sales Tax and Employment Tax ID for 20 years, but that > wasn't good enough. > > Paul - > > To be certain there?s a clear understanding of the problem that resulted > from the organization requirement ? are you saying that you were unable to > register a DBA name with Missouri Secretary of State in 2013? There is a > 7$ fee associated with such registration (every 5 years) but from all > appearances it is otherwise a rather nominal process, so if there is/was > some other barrier it would be good to explain it so that folks understand > the scope of the problem that you experienced when trying to do so. > > Thanks, > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > American Registry for Internet Numbers > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > Please contact [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any > issues. > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com<http://www.theipv6company.com/> > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of > the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including > attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this > communication and delete it. > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20250417/59eecf73/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2025 12:21:30 +0000 > From: John Curran <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > To: "[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>" < > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Cc: arin-ppml <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals > Message-ID: <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Jordi - > > The representation you seek from ARIN regarding government procedures > across the the entire region is not possible to make ? and as you note, it > would be meaningless the very next day because such laws and regulations > are outside of ARIN?s control and subject to change. Note that this is the > case regardless of whether speaking of networks run by organizations or > individuals ? the legal requirements on networks in any given portion of > the ARIN region are not determined by ARIN. > > What we can say is that our customers want us to be reasonably flexible in > our processes to the extent possible, just as we are with respect to > confirming whether organizations requesting resources operate within the > ARIN region. We?ve evolved our processes over time to make be more > straightforward, and this includes handling entities that are incorporated, > those using DBA registrations, sole proprietorships, etc. > > Your original query noted that ? In LACNIC we are having a discussion > because the policy manual only allows to distribute resources to > ?organizations legally registered? ? ? To be clear, ARIN is effectively the > same, but we are quite flexible in recognition of how our network customers > may go about their legal registration. > > Thanks! > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > American Registry for Internet Numbers > > On Apr 17, 2025, at 3:00?AM, jordi.palet--- via ARIN-PPML < > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > Hi John, > > A couple of questions on this: > > 1) There is a formal confirmation that this ?simple and ?inexpensive? > procedure is the same in all the ?areas? (states, whatever is te division > in each country) for all the service region countries of ARIN? > > 2) Are we sure that in all those areas/countries the cost of keeping that > ?status? (the one that is valid for ARIN), and I mean not only money, but > also recurrent paperwork (like for example if you need to present > quarterly/yearly tax reports, even if you don?t had economical activity), > is close to ?zero"? > > 3) As 1 and 2 above may change (a country law may decide that a > sole-proprietorship may be enforced to something else much more expensive > or cease that status), do it make sense that the policy and/or membership > documents ask for something that doesn?t depend on ARIN decisions, instead > of relaying in making sure that you provide ?real documents? and of course > a valid justification for the resources that you request (which is already > set in the policies for each type of resource)? > > Regards, > Jordi > > @jordipalet > > > El 17 abr 2025, a las 2:34, John Curran <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> escribi?: > > Ryan - > > Indeed. As both myself (and Bill Herrin) have pointed out a few times in > this discussion, ARIN already has flexibility in this regard and we do > have sole proprietorships that enter into agreements and obtain number > resources. Sole proprietorship works, DBA name registration works, > incorporation of a legal entity works ? hence the reason for further > discussion in order to gain a better understanding of the problem to be > solved. > > Thanks, > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > American Registry for Internet Numbers > > > On Apr 16, 2025, at 8:16?PM, Ryan Hamel <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> wrote: > > John, > > I echo David's point coming from California. My ARIN resources are under > my legal name, which was approved by the team that handles org tickets, and > the legal team. > > A sole proprietor without a DBA, can legally conduct business in several > states and potentially provinces too, and that also includes signing ARIN's > agreements. > > Kind regards, > > Ryan Hamel > ________________________________ > From: ARIN-PPML <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>> on behalf of David Farmer via ARIN-PPML < > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2025 4:58:48 PM > To: John Curran <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Cc: arin-ppml <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> > Subject: Re: [arin-ppml] distributing resources for individuals > > Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care > when clicking links or opening attachments. > > John, > > The issue is in Missouri, Minnesota, and probably many other states; if > you are doing business under your own name and not a DBA, you don't need to > register with the state to operate a sole proprietorship. > > So, if ARIN procedures require a lookup with the Secretary of State, > effectively, that requires more than just operating as a business; it also > requires operating that business under a fictitious name, not under the > owner's name. > > Section 9 of the NRPM gives a lot of latitude for demonstrating that an > organization operates within the ARIN region. A similar amount of latitude > should be available to establish that an individual is acting as a business > and not an individual, even if the jurisdiction's laws and procedures don't > neatly align with ARIN procedures. > > Thanks > > On Wed, Apr 16, 2025 at 6:04?PM John Curran <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]><mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > wrote: > > > On Apr 16, 2025, at 6:02?PM, Paul E McNary <[email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]><mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>> > wrote: > > Originally > 12 years ago when I tried to get ARIN resources, I was greatly harmed by > this. > In Missouri at that time a Sole Proprietor did not have to register with > the Secretary of State. > ARIN would not issue resources unless they could verify you with Secretary > of State database. > We had a State Sales Tax and Employment Tax ID for 20 years, but that > wasn't good enough. > > Paul - > > To be certain there?s a clear understanding of the problem that resulted > from the organization requirement ? are you saying that you were unable to > register a DBA name with Missouri Secretary of State in 2013? There is a > 7$ fee associated with such registration (every 5 years) but from all > appearances it is otherwise a rather nominal process, so if there is/was > some other barrier it would be good to explain it so that folks understand > the scope of the problem that you experienced when trying to do so. > > Thanks, > /John > > John Curran > President and CEO > American Registry for Internet Numbers > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > Please contact [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any > issues. > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.theipv6company.com<http://www.theipv6company.com/> > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of > the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the > intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or > use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including > attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this > communication and delete it. > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > Please contact [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any > issues. > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://lists.arin.net/pipermail/arin-ppml/attachments/20250417/4718a46d/attachment.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML mailing list > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > > > ------------------------------ > > End of ARIN-PPML Digest, Vol 238, Issue 17 > ****************************************** > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > Please contact [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any > issues. > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARIN-PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to > the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List ([email protected]<mailto: > [email protected]>). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > https://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/arin-ppml > Please contact [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> if you experience any > issues. > > > -- > =============================================== > David Farmer Email:[email protected]<mailto: > email%[email protected]> > Networking & Telecommunication Services > Office of Information Technology > University of Minnesota > 2218 University Ave SE > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/2218+University+Ave+SE?entry=gmail&source=g> > Phone: 612-626-0815 > Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 > =============================================== > >
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