On 2010-10-07, Stuart Rackham <[email protected]> wrote:

> AsciiDoc places no restrictions on the number of block elements you
> can put in a list item -- use list continuation to append block
> elements to a list item. You can group multiple block elements in a
> single OpenBlock. See:
>
> http://www.methods.co.nz/asciidoc/userguide.html#X15

I think we can safely assume I knew that since I both included
examples of it in my posting and explained about how the "+" was
required in asciidoc for multi-paragraph list items. ;)

The "+" is a bit ugly, but the main problem I have with the
continuaion is that after the "+" line you must unindent. Indentation
is not optional at that point in the list item: it's forbidden.  In
some places in a list, indentation is allowed, in other places it's
not.  I like the indentation in my source to reflect the structure of
the document.  Asciidoc doesn't allow that in some places.

> Your HTML and PDF outputs are will still be indented -- lack of
> indentation in the AsciiDoc source does not imply lack of indentation
> in output formats.  Admittedly list continuation is not as easy on
> the eye until you get used to it,

That's my main problem.  The structure of the document isn't reflected
visually by the input.  I think source files should be easily readable
by humans --  even ones who don't know asciidoc.

> but read on...
>
> AsciiDoc does not use horizontal indentation to specify list nesting,
> any indention is optional,

Indentation is _sometimes_ optional.

> this is intentional:
>
> 1. The use of tab characters in text editors makes document
>    interchange problematic.

Yes, I agree. Tabs are evil, and should not be allowed at all in input.

> 2. Maintaining correct indentation when entering text is fiddly, it
>    slows you up and breaks your train of thought, especially if you
>    don't want or care about indentation.

Two points:

 * I use a text-editor on a computer to write my source files. It
   knows how to handle indentation in an intuitive manner.  I don't
   have to think about it or do anything to maintain indentation. I
   just type. I actually have to "fiddle" with it to force it to
   misalign stuff when writing an asciidoc list item continuation.  I
   sort of assumed that others who write a lot of documents used text
   editors.

 * It's important to me that source files be human-readable to a
   lay-person. To people, indentation is significant.  That's why we
   use indentation in things like C source code.  Forcing people to
   ignore indentation places a higher cognitive load on the reader
   than need be.

> 3. If you cut and paste text to another level you have to remember to
>    adjust the indentation.

True.

But, indent/unindent is one keystroke. Most importantly, it's visually
obvious when looking at the source file when it's wrong.  My
philosophy is that source code readabilty trumps a keystroke saved
during writing. Source files are only written once or twice, but they
are read thousands and thousands of times.


> List Grammatical Style
> ----------------------
> List items should rarely contain more that a single short paragraph
> or phrase.  The purpose of a list is to enumerate a premise with a
> number points, one point per list item.

Ah.  I had presumed that asciidoc was about mechanism, not policy.
Too many years of using X I guess.

> The use of long multi-paragraph list items quickly obscures the
> list's premise and the point that the list item is making.

You must write different sorts of documents that I do.  For example, I
write documents explaining how do accomplish certain tasks on a
computer.  I find that an enumerated list is a natrual way to present
the steps involved.  So, often I want an enumerated list item to
consist of an explanatory sentence or two and a command-line example.
I've not been able to figure out how to do that in a readable manner
using asciidoc.  I think it's import to indent lists so that it's easy
for the reader (of the source file) to visually see where each item
begins/ends, and how the lists are nested.

> If you find your document contains multi-paragraph lists you should
> consider making each paragraph a separate point or putting list items
> in separately titled subsections.

I guess asciidoc is trying to enforce certain writing/editorial
policies that under some circumstances I don't agree with.  Presumably
I should work on fixing up reStructuredTexts CSS files to make the
output look better instead of complaining about what I perceive as the
readability issues in asciidoc source files.

Thanks for explaining the reasons behind things.

-- 
Grant



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