Chandan da and Mike da,
I agree with you on one point that the present set up of India is not working with respect to Assam and North East and the set up needs to changed. I also agree with you that the true spirit of North East , which is the age old trust and dependance between different ethnic groups need to be restored. I also agree with you on your well known stand that radical Hindutva will be a death blow to the National fabric of North East.
But we definitely do differ on How to go about it.
>>**** I don't know that ANYBODY in this forum either asserted, or suggested or even implied >> that it does not matter. But the tone of the question belies an unsaid assumption that it >> has not been or will not be addressed by the PCG, when the question arises in the course >> of the pre-negotiation talks or in the actual ULFA/Center negotiations.
I agree on that. Surely most of members of this forum have the minimum intellactual maturity to understand that IT DOES matter. But I have not seen or am not aware of any serious effort on the part of PCG to take all ethnic groups into confidence. Just look at the PCG member list and tell me whether they represent all cross section of ethnic groups.
>> My guess is that the question has arisen on the assumption that ULFA will seek
>> a sovereign Assam in which the Bodos, the Karbis, the Tewas and all the other indigenous
>> people will be second class citizens.
Again you missed the point. Have you seen the map of sovereign Bodoland demanded by NDFB ? Or have you seen the map of the sovereign Nagalim demanded by NSCN ? Do you or not see the intersecting areas ? It does not take a genius to understand there does exist a conflict of interest between the demands of these different groups.
>> *** Yes, I too agree. I believe that one of the weakest links of the ULFA and the associated >> freedom movements have been an absence of a well organized over-ground front to deal
>> with the political questions. But I also understand the enormous obstacle of the Indian
>> army, its clandestine operations and its stooges the Assam and Indian media poses.
Glad to see that we atleast agree on something :) But I can tell you the centre is going to exploit on this "weakest link" to the fullest extent while in the negotiation table.
>> *** I commend you on that. And I EXPECTED you to do that :-).
Any body who loves Assam and want peace and prosperity restored in Assam, will wish PCG a success. Anybody who loves Assam can not write off ULFA, NDFB. Afterall they are our boys . But as an Assamese and a Bodo ( I am half), it is moral duty to point out where I see things going wrong or could go wrong.
And there is definitely some conflict between the groups. If you do not believe, just look at the history of Bodo and other ethnic movements - the birth of Plains Tribal Council of Assam in 1963, Movement for Udayachal, Movement for Roman Script, Movement for Bodoland and the on going struggle by NDFB that demands a sovereign Bodoland seperate from Assam and India.
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>But is it important or not to find out what could be their wish or it simply >does not matter.**** I don't know that ANYBODY in this forum either asserted, or suggested or even implied that it does not matter. But the tone of the question belies an unsaid assumption that it has not been or will not be addressed by the PCG, when the question arises in the course of the pre-negotiation talks or in the actual ULFA/Center negotiations.My guess is that the question has arisen on the assumption that ULFA will seeka sovereign Assam in which the Bodos, the Karbis, the Tewas and all the other indigenous people will be second class citizens.I don't know what ULFA might be thinking on the matter, but from what is public knowledge, ULFA is not struggling alone but with complete co-operation from the other indigenous people of Assam, including Bengalis. I realize that NOT ALL in these groups support them. But that is true for all.>Just wanted to point out some challanges they need to address.*** Yes, I too agree. I believe that one of the weakest links of the ULFA and the associated freedom movements have been an absence of a well organized over-ground front to deal with the political questions. But I also understand the enormous obstacle of the Indian army, its clandestine operationsand its stooges the Assam and Indian media poses.>I do wish PCG a success.*** I commend you on that. And I EXPECTED you to do that :-).>> *** I don't have any quarrel with that. By all means they should. But WHY should I or>> anyone else accept the fact that just because Utpal Brahma asserts he represents the>> wishes of the Bodo people, it is indeed the unimpeachable truth?You don't have to accept just because I said so and neither do I represent the Bodo people. But is it important or not to find out what could be their wish or it simply does not matter.I do wish PCG a success. Just wanted to point out some challanges they need to address.
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>And tell me why shouldn't they ?*** I don't have any quarrel with that. By all means they should. But WHY should I or anyone else accept the fact that just because Utpal Brahma asserts he represents the wishes of the Bodo people, it is indeed the unimpeachable truth?>Tell me how many members of other ethnic groups in Assam (apart from Assamese >speakers) have you taken into confidence before you can say that they want >their fate be determined by PCG ?*** First off, the PCG neither has the authority, nor the ability to DECIDE the fate of the people of Assam. It is a profoundly and obviously faulty assumption and thus the questions/comments framed on that assumption have little merit.From what I read and understand is that the PCG is merely an instrument to set the stage for a negotiated settlement between the Center and ULFA. In that, they don't need to PROVE anything to anybody at all.But at the same time, considering the reaction of the people across the state and as could be gauged by newspaper reports, a tremendous amount of HOPE is placed on the PCG to be able to pave the way for a successful end to the ULFAmovement. It is to the PCG's credit that they are inviting comments, ideas, participation from the people. One would hope therefore that those who have Assam's welfare in mind, would participate, CONSTRUCTIVELY, instead of attempting to demonize them personally or assign ulterior motives to their efforts.Anyone wishing to understand what is going on would want to know why such a hope on the what the PCG might accomplish. One could infer from that, by and large, the people do indeed identify with the PCG's mission. We also know that a faction, including certain Assam Netters, DO NOT identify or have any goodwill towards the PCG's mission. That is their choice. Under these circumstances, it is them who are opponents of Assam's interests. They are the ones DO NOT represent Assam.IF the PCG and subsequently the ULFA were to succeed in the negotiations with the Center, it would mean certain GAINs for Assam. Gains, which would otherwise not be there. That is exactly why, like Santanu Roy explained so eloquently sometime back, the bigger the support of the people for the PCG and subsequently for the ULFA's positions, the higher and better would the GAINS be for Assam.However I realize that the option for pursuing the 'apwnar naak kati xotinir jatra bhongo kora' ( to cut off one's nose to spite one's face) remains open for the willing. And it has been hard not to notice the consternation among the self-righteous of Assam Net trashing around not knowing how to deal with beinginconsequential to the developments.To assert that the PCG does not represent Assam or to assert that Utpal Brahma represents the Bodo people's wishes are equally presumptuous and highly unpersuasive propositions. Similarly the assertions of some of Assam Netters , Indian newspapers and the like that the ULFA do not represent Assam's interests are also baseless, or at best highly questionable.The ONLY way to be certain about these issues will be to have a free an unfettered debate and a subsequent free and fair referendum.But I won't hold my breath on that happening anytime soon.At 9:08 PM +0000 11/2/05, Malabika Brahma wrote:
>> Utpal and others challenges PCG to prove that they represent Assam.
>> Why? Obviously because he/they believe it does not. How do they know
>> that? Are they more informed than the people? You tell us.
How do you know that the PEOPLE may have these questions too. Tell me how many members of other ethnic groups in Assam (apart from Assamese speakers) have you taken into confidence before you can say that they want their fate be determined by PCG ?
I am at least more informed about the sentiments and psyche of Bodos than a lot of other members in this forum. And I can tell you that the questions I raised, will be raised by most of the Bodos.
And tell me why shouldn't they ?
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Mayur:
I reserve my right to reply to posts I choose to.
I also do not read everyone's posts. Don't have either the time or
the desire to. I can easily tell who is running with what agenda.
And of those that I read,. not everything is deserving of a response.
For many reasons. Namely, in no particular order:
1: Utterly dumb.
2: So ignorant, that it is no use replying to.
3: Disingenuous arguments.
4: People with an agenda that is abhorrent to me.
5: Stupid assumptions.
6: Absurd claims.
7: Comments that have little purpose other than to assert ones
own righteousness, how prescient they are and so forth.
8: Pseudo-philosophical gobledy-gook.
So on and so forth.
Also, as much as I try to respond to people's questions or
challenges, I get tired of obliging because my questions and
challenges! rarely get replied to.
Take your own comments for example. I challenged you in my la! st post about YOUR
SELECTIVE outrage at innocent lives taken. What is your reply? You
try to change the subject.
Rajib attempted to equate the thousands of lives of Assam youth taken
by the Indian army, to the mindless bombers at Delhi the other day
Is it an applicable analogy? Is it a good faith argument? Rajib may
or may not have the mental capacity to differentiate the two. But I
sure hope you do.
Having said that I agree with your proposition that there ought to be
a a free and fair referendum , after a period of unrestricted public
discourse and debate, to decide what the people of Assam really want.
Without that, the claims and counter claims mean NOTHING.
Utpal and others challenges PCG to prove that they represent Assam.
Why? Obviously because he/they believe it does not. How do they know
that? Are they more informed! than the people? You tell us.
Reasonable people could surmise that Assam's establishment and the
outsider controlled business interests do not identify with the PCG.
Is it a surprise? Heck no. Why? Because it does not want to have its
golden goose killed either by a new independent Assam government, ora REFORMED autonomous Assam.
But is such an attitude something you or I ought to support?
> >We must examine the pros and cons of everything before
>misleading people by excessive lionisation of a few
>individiuals and romanticisation of the issues raised
>by them.
*** I agree. So why do you indulge in it :-)?
But seriously, I never attempt to TELL anyone anything and expect
others to accept them because I SAY SO. I make every effort, even at
the risk of being too verbose, to explain my reasons. Therefore I
have absolutely no qualms about anyone being misled by my arguments.
If some are ! persuaded to my points of view, they are so because they
understand and accept the logic/reaso! ns. Not because they are stupid
like you insinuate. On the other hand, those of you who make
superficial judgements, without ever attempting to explain your
positions, are the ones with a closed mind, smug in your
self-righteousness, and oblivious of the ignorance with which you all
make those judgements.
cm
At 8:42 AM -0800 11/2/05, mayur bora wrote:
>Dear Mahanta da
>
>Thanks for the reply which was on expected lines. You
>can't compare Assam with Kashmir where the situation
>at the ground level is entirely different. The
>struggle there is much more broadbased and it has
>strong religious overtones as well as underpinnings of
>mass support. I can bet that not even 10% of our
>people want secession from India. As I told you
>earli! er also, I am game for a plebiscite preceded by a
>healthy and comprehensive debate covering ! the entire
>gamut of issues.
>
>I have observed that your response is often selective.
>I am eager to know what would be your reply to the
>points raised by Rajen da, Arindam and Tridip in the
>last few days. How you would like to counter my point
>in the last mail regarding 'sacrifice for a cause' ?
>
>We must examine the pros and cons of everything before
>misleading people by excessive lionisation of a few
>individiuals and romanticisation of the issues raised>by them.
>
>Bye for now
>
>Mayur
>Chandigarh
>
>--- Chan Mahanta wrote:
>
>> Hi Mayur:
>>
>>
>> First off, your and others like you who are
>> unwilling or
>> intellectually unable to grasp and acknowledge that
>> the violence
>> spawned by Kashmir has a reason, has a clear and
>> well documented
>> history of its origins and its steady worsening;
>> leaves you, Rajib
>> Das and others with no credibility at all.
>>
>> The bomb blasts at Delhi designed to kill and maim
>> civilians are
>> unconscionable.
>>
>> But that does not absolve India of its complicity in
>> producing such
>> mindless violence that has gotten bloodier by the
>> decades. And the
>> blood of the innocents are on the hands of those who
>>! were unable or
>> unwilling to raise their voices against their
>> national policies.
>>
>> How does one then explain the heart-bleed only when
>> innocent deaths
>> strike close to home? Is it not the lust for
>> real-estate over people?
>> Have you shed a tear over the! 200 thousand Kashmiri
>> dead? Are they
>> not people? Were they all blood-thirsty killers that
>> deserve to be
>> mowed down by Indian guns: Men, women, children and
>> the aged and the
>> infirm alike? How do their humanity continue to
>> escape you?
>>
>>
>> > >They will try to
>> >justify by insinuating to India's obsession with
>> 'real estate'.
>>
>>
>> *** JUSTIFY, heh-heh! Trying to spin out of an
>> intellectual bind, aren't you?
>>
>> But words will not let you ! off the hook. If it is
>> not me, someone
>> else, somewhere else, will point out WHY it
>> continues to happen. You
>> cannot run away from what you know!
>>
>> And I will stand corrected, when you or anybody else
>> can explain how
>> it is anything but lust for the rea! l-estate minus
>> the people who call
>> it home.
>>
>>
>> cm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At 2:25 AM -0800 11/1/05, mayur bora wrote:
>> >Well said Rajib. It was extremely heart-wrenching.
>> I
>> >read the tragic incident of two Assamese families
>> on
>> >yesterday's internet edition of AT and Dainik
>> >Agradoot. But people whom you are trying to address>> >with the example of this unfortunate event will
>> never
>> >acknowledge the disastrous effects and futility of
>> >this kind of mindless violence. They will try to
>> >justify by insinuating to India's obsession with
>> 'real
>> >estate'.
>> >
>> >You can wake up people who are sleeping.
>> >You can't wake up people who are pretending to be
>> >asleep.
>&! gt; >
>> >Most of the people who are supporting ULFA have got
>> >their own vested interests. For the time being, I
>> >don't mind giving benefit of doubt to a few netters
>> >who are supporting ULFA due to my firm belief in
>> the
>> >adage that no one can fool all the people for all
>> the
>> >time.
>> >
>> >As regards the desire to sacrifice life for a
>> cause,
>> >less said about it is better. From the early
>> nineties,
>> >we have seen how our guys start confessing their
>> >secrets as soon as they are nabbed by police or
>> army.
>> >Compare this with LTTE guerillas. Some of our boys
>> >don't know for what they are fighting. Most of them
>> >are not convinced of the cause. It is like an easy
>> >status symbol. Of course, I don't rule out
>! > exception.
>> >
>> >I can only hope that vested interests of a section
>> of
>> >the people will take a backseat in the greater
>> >interest of peace and sanctity of human life.
>> >
>> >Mayur
>> >Chandigarh
>> >--- Rajib Das wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Those who are ready to give up their lives first
>> >> take
>> >> others' lives. Here is one family's story from
>> the
>> >> Delhi bomb blasts:
>> >>
>&! gt; >>
>>
>>http://www.telegraphindia.com/1051101/asp/nation/story_5424590.asp
>> >>
>> >> Wonder whether we should be putting a halo
>> around
>> >> these guys heads? Or necks?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
! >> >>
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