Ram:
There WAS no confusion. Even though you missed the NOT, I understood
what you meant. I was not playing with semantics.
Fact is I never suggested Assam govt. is or was NOT corrupt. It
always has been.
But you are attempting to deflect dysfunctional GoI's role in
creating and sustaining an unaccountable system with NO deterrence
against CORRUPTION, because of which NO state or even GoI cannot
bring anyone to justice.
To prove I am wrong, all you need to do is point to a few significant
convictions : Like a minister, an MP, a governor, a military general,
a secretary, a couple of DCs or a couple of MLAs or a company CEO or
MD going to prison for corruption, and having to forfeit their
ill-gotten wealth.
Why can't you?
Looks like it is all chaos and nothing works.
*** You are playing with semantics Ram. I would have hoped you could
understand I was referring to CORRUPTION.
Unfortunately, the degrees or extent of corruption is very
important. If it >were insignificant, maybe we could stamp it out in
a hurry.
*** Again semantics! Did you really not understand I was referring to
the highly subjective COMPARATIVE degree/extent of corruption between
Assam and some other mythical corrupt, but less corrupt than Assam
that you all allude to?
BUT, even IF it were to be so,it is quite immaterial to the solution,
because the institutions of state that are ESSENTIAL to establish
that deterrence against corrupt behavior is the same
everywhere:--dysfunctional desi-govt.
Failing which you are reduced to waxing inane like APJA Kalam with
statements like "---Manjunath was a righteous man who came from
a righteous family and we must strive to make
more righteous families." that Tavleen Singh wrote about.
But, somehow, even within this chaos, some states seem to be doing
far better than >others.Whatever the yardstick is, all most people
are asking is why can't Assam at least be >somewhere in the middle.
*** Seems to be doing much better in doing WHAT Ram? In ERADICATING corruption?
Heck, if they are, why don't you tell us WHAT they are doing? Why
don't you tell Assam Govt. to emulate them? Or write a letter to
Pres. APJA Kalam telling him that is what he ought to hold up to the
country?
Ok, C'da, I was just tring to visualize your solution and have come
to realize >its as cock-eyed as my solution:)
*** Really? Care to explain WHY it is cockeyed? What is / are the fallacies or
faults with what I point out?
I don't see your prescription ever taking place - you are after all
going for >the big kahunas - the GOI, the whole system, an
independent Assam etc.
*** Leave Assam independence out of it. There would not have been
such a movement if there had been a responsive and effective govt.
I realize all too well why there will be no change where it
matters--namely meaningful reforms at Delhi. Glad to see you
acknowledge you know it too, even though it was worse than pulling
teeth to get you to say it aloud.
But without FUNCTIONING institutions of state setting up deterrence,
there will be no change. It will only get worse, unless you are
banking on the 'Hindu Moral Code' to usher in ethical behavior.
My solution, vague as it is, goes only after the big fish at the local level.
*** So you want AT , Sentinel and AASU to effect corruption
eradication? Are you serious? What have you been smoking Ram :-)?
c-da
At 2:21 PM -0600 11/27/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da.
>You fabricated the question the other day: Are you now
saying >that NO Axomiya officers/politicians have not shared in the
loot?
There was no intent. But looks like I have thrown grammar to the
winds, and also left out/inserted words that could change the
meaning of what I was trying to say. Apologizes alround.
Here is what was written:
>>*** Can we now, with what we unearthed with these debates, agree
that Sandip >>Dutta's >charge that " ONLY --- a few Axomiya
officers and politicians have >>become rich at the >expense of these
villagers" is at least BASELESS, if not >>entirely malicious,
designed to >paint Oxomiya disaffections as THEIR own damn >>fault?
C'da - this is a round-robin. No, we can't agree with your assessment.
Are you now saying that NO Axomiya officers/politicians have not
shared in the loot? Without the active connivence of Assamese
Officers/politicians
Assam would have been in a much better shape.
The word "NOT" shouldn't have been there. Call it eager fingers, but
that was in error. All I was asking if that was your opinion - ie.
giving the Assamese officers/politicos etc a clean chit?
Now to the other parts.
>The degree or extent of corruption, as YOU or SD PERCEIVE
is >entirely immaterial to the issue at hand.
Unfortunately, the degrees or extent of corruption is very
important. If it were insignificant, maybe we could stamp it out in
a hurry. But if it is pervasive - its a different ballgame.
Are these subjective? Yes, I think you are right. But there are
certain ways one can measure right direction, wrong direction.
Like some of the questions in my last post. We don't have answer off
the bat, but we could find out.
>There is NO DETERRENCE of any kind. Not >ethical/moral/societal,
and none >governmental.
Looks like it is all chaos and nothing works. You are scarring me
C'da, was planning to visit the desh, think I should change my mind?
:)
>You know exactly where the problems lie, but cannot face up to
acknowledging >them because I made it extremely uncomfortable for
you to , years ago :-), by >connecting it with Assamese
disaffections and ULFA's emergence to the subject.
I have not said that there are no problems. We all know corruption
and bureaucracy affects nearly every facet of life.
But, somehow, even within this chaos, some states seem to be doing
far better than others.
Whatever the yardstick is, all most people are asking is why can't
Assam at least be somewhere in the middle.
And if, as usual, you blame the whole system of governance, then a
logical question would be how come even some states in the NE are
faring better?
Lastly,
>Unfortunately you make yourself look clueless, over and over
again, by putting >forth arguments like:
>>A number of have stated in these columns, that corrupt govt. or
officers can be >>dealt with a coordinated effort by the media, RTI,
people etc. Now, the results >>may not be immediate as one would
wish, but a constant and frequent exposure >>of >corrupt officials
and politicians would hit home ultimately .
part of your response to Bhuban da:
The lesson therefore is that unless and until Assam reforms its
governmental systems by exorcising the demons of dysfunctional
desi-governaqnce, there is not a chance anything will change.
Ok, C'da, I was just tring to visualize your solution and have come
to realize its as cock-eyed as my solution:) :)
I don't see your prescription ever taking place - you are after all
going for the big kahunas - the GOI, the whole system, an
independent Assam etc.
My solution, vague as it is, goes only after the big fish at the
local level. There is a good chance, if Assamese want it, they can
change the way things are run, at least in Assam. After that is
done, I will join you and others in condemning the Center for all
other problems :)
--Ram
On 11/27/06, Chan Mahanta
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
Ram:
The degree or extent of corruption, as YOU or SD PERCEIVE is
entirely immaterial to the issue at hand.
Your assertions on the matter is entirely subjective. You or I
cannot prove or disprove the extent or degree of corruption. More
credible and knowledgeable people than yourself or SD will dispute
your assertions.
But that is not necessary. We both know that corruption is PERVASIVE
and deeply rooted ALL OVER INDIA. When Prez, Kalam was agonizing
over it last week, he did not pick Assam. It was about India.
You fabricated the question the other day: Are you now saying
that NO Axomiya officers/politicians have not shared in the loot?
Can you show us when I EVER made such a comment? At no time have I
ever made that assertion or even implied it.
But the real issue is Indian governance: Its inability to stem this
ever worsening phenomenon. The fact is that desi-demokrasy is so
thoroughly broken that it has NO institution of state to
charge-sheet, investigate, adjudicate
and punish the guilty. There is NO DETERRENCE of any kind. Not
ethical/moral/societal, and none governmental.
Question is do you or SD know that?
I don't know about SD, he may truly be ignorant. But I don't believe
you to be so for a moment :-). You know exactly where the problems
lie, but cannot face up to acknowledging them because I made it
extremely uncomfortable for you to , years ago :-), by connecting it
with Assamese disaffections and ULFA's emergence to the subject.
Unfortunately you make yourself look clueless, over and over again,
by putting forth arguments like:
>A number of have stated in these columns, that corrupt govt. or
officers can be >dealt with a coordinated effort by the media, RTI,
people etc. Now, the results >may not be immediate as one would
wish, but a constant and frequent exposure of >corrupt officials and
politicians would hit home ultimately.
That is your choice, and my pleasure :-).
But you, and others who make such arguments are NOT contributing
anything to a solution, by refusing to acknowledge the problem.
c-da
PS: I will send you another TS article in the next post.
At 10:13 AM -0600 11/27/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da,
Thanks for the posting. Tavleen always does a good job of bringing
these issues to the forefront - and legitimately so.
TS correctly zeroes in on corruption as the root cause. But even TS
will agree that there are stark differences even in this corruption
when it comes to Assam and a state like Maharastra.
Questions for you and Tavleen:
Will Maharastra tolerate frequent and long drawn out load sheddings?
How many villages in Maharastra are electrified (as compared to Assam)
How many driveable road miles are there in Assam and Maharastra
What % of the roads in Maharastra are absolutely deplorable (again
as compared to Assam).
No, these are just questions to ponder, and most of us know the
answers. Comparing problems in Mumbai to those in Assam is like
comparing NYC to Mumbai.
It is mind-boggling as to why we have such a high degree of
tolerance toward large scale corruption that is throttling the very
life out of the state?
Basically, it does not even matter if the rest of the states are
more corrupt than Assam. They may be able to afford that luxury,
Assam cannot.
--Ram
On 11/27/06, Chan Mahanta
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am re-posting the following for Ram and Sandip Dutta to read,
before I return back to the discussions.
cm
Horrible Condition of our Roads
On the Spot
Tavleen Singh
The first convoy of official cars I encountered, driving to Pune
last week, flew saffron flags on every car of the size you normally
see atop temples. My driver spotted Bal Thakeray in one of the white
ambassadors. No sooner did we pass Mcdonald's in Panvel (a
travellers' watering hole) than I spotted another official convoy.
This time no saffron flags, only a car filled with policemen in
front of a grey Land Cruiser behind which was another car also filled
with policemen and officials. Alone in the back of the Land Cruiser
sat Sharad Pawar.
The coincidence of encountering Maharashtra's two most powerful
political leaders on the same journey made me reflect upon the role
of politics in preventing India from building the infrastructure it
so badly needs. Pawar and Thakeray would have driven down the same
road I had taken from Mumbai so they could not have failed to notice
its condition. It is no longer a road so much as a dirt track on
which you bump your way from ditch to ditch to ditch. This is after
you have driven bumper to bumper past Chembur's hideous slums where
public toilets are so clogged that people prefer to squat along the
main road beside the rotting garbage in which pigs, dogs and
barefoot children scrabble for food. Did Mr Pawar notice? Did Mr
Thakeray who has built a political career out of inciting Marathi
pride?
Mumbai is Maharashtra's proudest possession. Any talk of it being
taken out of the State Government's control causes hackles to rise
across political divisions and yet none of this State's mighty
leaders appears to have paid any attention to the most basic
requirements of social infrastructure: clean water, sanitation and
housing. Had they paid attention, then instead of slums in Chembur
there would have been affordable housing for the poor.
Instead of evil slum lords there would have been legitimate real
estate companies controlling the housing market.
As for the dreadful condition of Indian roads, please allow nobody
to fool you into believing that our roads are bad because of a
shortage of funds. They are bad mainly because they have been built
to last no longer than a single season of rain. Why? Perhaps because
the contractors who build them are well connected enough to be given
the same contract every year. You notice this more on the drive from
Mumbai to Pune than on any other road because when you get onto the
expressway you realize that India can build roads that do not
collapse with the rain.
Once you get onto the expressway you drive along the best road in
India that has remained totally intact despite this year's
unprecedented rainfall. When I asked a friend in the construction
business why this was so he said, "Simple. The Mumbai-Pune
expressway was built by responsible construction companies with
reputations to protect. Usually roads are built either by faceless
CPWD engineers or by small contractors with big connections."
So one of the flaws in the system is that political leaders hand out
major road contracts to builders who would not pre-qualify to build a
public toilet in a more sensible country. The reason for this is
that the system we devised for these things places total emphasis on
cost and none on quality. He who makes the lowest bid wins the
contract, so to cover his costs he cuts corners and uses cheap
materials and outdated technology.
He could not care less if the road he builds does not survive a
single monsoon because he has, more often than not, a connection
high up enough for him to get the contract to rebuild the road again
and again. This is true across the length and breadth of our dear
Bharat Mata which is why we are internationally renowned for having
the worst roads in the world.
I got off the expressway at Chinchwad which is one of Maharashtra's
leading industrial towns. Many of India's biggest manufacturing
companies have factories here and the municipality is believed to be
one of our richest but the road I drove down was so narrow and
gutted that I was stuck in an hour long traffic jam consisting
mainly of massive articulated lorries with names like MAERSK painted
on their sides. The eternal clash between the new 'emerging' economy
and our ancient, socialist infrastructure.
The clash would not exist if only we could get our political leaders
to understand that unless they put infrastructure (both social and
physical) at the top of their list of priorities we will still be
talking about our 'potential' to be an economic superpower fifty
years from now. If we can just build the roads and do something
about the appalling state of our cities and towns we can start
making our economic superpower dream a reality in the next five
years. These were the gloomy thoughts of your humble columnist as I
drove past a sign that warned motorists to be careful on the upcoming
bridge because its condition was 'dangerous.' If we were really on
our way to superpowerdom then instead of the sign we would have seen
a repaired bridge. I could go on and on and on.
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