Re: [Assam] [asom] Assamese Fears and Saviours

[mc mahant]

<Essentially, if the intent to institute reforms is to make India stronger & better, then there would be a lot of support for such moves>

May I butt in?

Yours Truly told MMS the same -1 year back "Talk direct. Work out details. We all want to see India Strong,meaningful, happy, Great extended family Home"

They still can't comprehend or are fooling around for cheap alternatives! None exists.

mm

 

 

---

From:  "Ram Sarangapani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:  "Chan Mahanta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC:  assam@assamnet.org
Subject:  Re: [Assam] [asom] Assamese Fears and Saviours
Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 2006 17:33:37 -0600

C'da,

 

You bring up a number  of issues. Let me try to address a few choice ones here:)

 

>The solution in this area is REFORMS. Meaningful, comprehensive governmental reforms.  Just like >economic reforms are beginning to payoff for SOME segments of India.

 

>*** What is 'quasi' about reforms, Ram? You don't speak of MMS' economic reforms as 'quasi' or 'unworkable' or >impossible to achieve. Why? What is different?

>Do you dispute, that those of you who are mortally afraid of calling out for governmental reforms is for any >other reason than the fear of giving the causes of the ULFA insurgency any legitimacy ?

 

First off, all I said was your solutions were "quasi" NOT Govt. Reforms.

 

And no one is against reforms. Why should anyone be against reforms? What they may be against is what is meant by "reforms" in some quarters:) To some, "reforms" could mean flushing the Indian Constitution

(System) totally  for something else, instead of suggesting ways Indian Governance could be improved upon.

Essentially, if the intent to institute reforms is to make India stronger & better, then there would be a lot of support for such moves.

 

>>What then is YOUR solution for Assam to at least be at par with some of the better states >(at least in the areas >>in which they are functional)?

>*** That is a false proposition, because to compare apples and apples we will have to assume that they started >at the same place. Assam's resources were never under Assam's control. Assam's educational establishment was >rudimentary. Assam's exposure to, the world outside was severely limited. And there are far too many other >factors.

 

Can you tell us which of these states have had their resources under their "control"?

Why were the educational estds. rudimentary in Assam? Most states (including Assam)started with similar humble beginings. The Gauhati Univ. was estd. in 1948 with some of the best faculty and under a great stewardship  (Late KK Handique). Many institutions came after GU and and since surpassed it. What went wrong - State Control? The IIT-Guwahati estd. only the other day, on the other hand is doing great? Why? Central control? Why is Tezpur Univ. doing better than GU?.

 

>Reforms in ALL those areas, at the very least.

>Since India holds all of the cards on the matter, and it is neither willing nor able to muster the political will, the >only way Assam could effect those reforms would be thru independence or a very high degree of autonomy

.

 

Assam can institute its own set of reforms at the state level - no one is going to complain. Why wait for the Center? And yes, the states do have a sizeable control. You mentioned Education. Education is both on the Central list and the State List. If one were to look carefully, the Center has actually very little control of a state's education. It only comes into play with central institutions being established and maybe when trying to push Hindi down non-Hindi speaking people's throats. Much everthing else is under the state's control.

 

And you think independence will bring in reforms? Who, pray, is going to be incharge of this noble effort?.

Autonomy for states - that is good for all states, not just Assam. BUT A high degree of autonomy is great when a state is doing great, but what happens to say an under-performing state, like say Bihar? Will you let Bihar fend for itself? A high degree of autonomy also brings with it a high degree of responsibility.

 

> Assam's disaffections would have been far less than what it is today. Substantially nothing has changed since >when ULFA took to arms and now. And the blame is squarely on Indian governance as carried out by Dilli's >puppets in Assam

.

 

You are not talking about economic reforms are you? Sure is surprizing that Ulfa is for reforms? The last thing we hear is that the National Games won't held in Guwahati because ulfa has issued threats. And that could have injected vital resources for the local economy.

 

But, C'da, hope springs eternal - thats what we have left. :)

 

--Ram

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 11/30/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Ram:

 

>Hope you don't mind my butting in.

 

*** Not at all. More the merrier :-).

 

 

>Since you make most of the accusations about mal-governance etc, and since you >never seem to accept any solutions to the myraid of problems many of us >propose, let us see some of your solutions.

 

 

*** I have given mine--many times. But I will again. However it was NOT I who made the following charge:

 

>That is the hallmark of an ignorant society. While the ones capable of making a >difference only want to reap undue benefits from high office, an equally >ignorant populace either goes about just accepting things or just >blaming the "centre" - for the centre is a convenient scapegoa

 

--- while NOT being able to articulate, even after repeated requests, HOW the

ignorant populace will fight what is depriving them of what is rightfully theirs.

 

 

>and since you never seem to accept any solutions to the myraid of problems many >of us propose,

 

*** WHAT were those solutions that YOU ALL proposed Ram? Obviously I missed them. You are not referring to AT, Sentinel and AASU to the rescue , are you?

If you are, can you tell us HOW the newspapers' weekly outpourings of outrage against governmental corruption is faring so far?

And how exactly do you foresee AASU to the rescue? Take to the streets? Enforce 'bondhos'?  What?

 

 

>Now, if you believe that the populace in NOT ignorant, can you tell us why they have been >silent all this while,

 

*** Have they been silent Ram? You don't have to take my word for it, but why don't you ask others here, if the populace has been silent? I would venture to suggest, that CORRUPTION and governmental dysfunction have been the most widely railed-about subject in ALL of middle-class India, not merely in Assam, for decades on end now.

 

*** The populace Ram, is made up of a variety of people. Some are ignorant, some are geniuses, many are fairly well-informed. Some of them are corrupt. But many others are of great integrity.

 

Those with integrity have long given up their struggles, because the SYSTEM does not come to their aid. The corrupt get-away, every-time. That is because the

TOOLS to fight corruption with that are available: Investigation, prosecution,and adjudication  are DEFUNCT. They cannot produce anything.

 

A society that cannot punish bad behavior in its government and reward good, are destined to suffer from what they do all over India today.

 

 

> The Center has its faults,--

 

*** Really? What are they, as RELATES to the SUBJECT under discussion? You tell us what they might be and we can talk.

>but as we have stated over and over again, why have people in OTHER states fared better >under the same dysfunctional system?

*** The answer to that does not tell us ANYTHING about the subject: Of 'few high govt. officials' pocketing what is meant for development for the many.

 

Who says Assam has not fared better under the prevailing system?  Guwahati is booming with high-rises all over, roads are clogged with cars, people are buying durable consumer-goods in great quantities!

 

But WHO are the beneficiaries of this boom? Is it the general populace, or a privileged few?

If it is the latter, what do they produce, with which they are participating in the consumption fest, wouldn't you want to know? I asked the question of Shantikam Hazarika too, but he would not reply :-). Maybe you will enlighten us?

 

 

Is it the same sector that are DISFFECTED, or is the sector who would not want the golden goose killed, or the apple cart upset by REFORMS?

 

 

 

>What then is YOUR solution for Assam to at least be at par with some of the better states >(at least in the areas in which they are functional)?

 

*** That is a false proposition, because to compare apples and apples we will have to assume that they started at the same place. Assam's resources were never under Assam's control. Assam's educational establishment was rudimentary. Assam's exposure to, the world outside was severely limited. And there are far too many other factors.

 

It is quite a ridiculous proposition to try to prove anything by comparing Assam's condition with some other state or region. It will be like

about as thoughtful a question as Henry Higgins', about why Women can't be like men.

 

 

*** Governmental dysfunction is culpable in areas that the govt. controls:

Infrastructure, education, health care, other govt. controlled 'development' work. When those monies are squandered , thru mismanagement and corruption, the people are left holding the bag.

 

The solution in this area is REFORMS. Meaningful, comprehensive governmental reforms.  Just like economic reforms are beginning to payoff for SOME segments of India.

 

Had India undertaken effective reforms, in these last twenty years, Assam's disaffections would have been far less than what it is today. Substantially nothing has changed since when ULFA took to arms and now. And the blame is squarely on Indian governance as carried out by Dilli's puppets in Assam.

 

 

>Your oft repeated quasi-solutions amounts to "change the system", "fix the dysfunctional >democracy". Easier said than done, and one long-term solution that will come about.

 

*** What is 'quasi' about reforms, Ram? You don't speak of MMS' economic reforms as 'quasi' or 'unworkable' or impossible to achieve. Why? What is different?

 

Do you dispute, that those of you who are mortally afraid of calling out for governmental reforms is for any other reason than the fear of giving the causes of the ULFA insurgency any legitimacy ?

>Also, about the "colonist center" (Delhi) - would it help if Delhi were replaced by a >"colonist Dispur" or a "colonist Dakha" vis-a-vis Assam?

*** I would rather not go there Ram. It could lead to unpleasantness that we have no need for :-).

 

>Fair enough. So, what is your grand plan for Assam?

>How does Assam get out from under this inescapable tyranny from Delhi?

>And we wait with bated breath:):)

*** See the note I sent out in response to Dilip's on Nov. 18 and requested

Mr. JP Rajkhowa to comment on. Reforms in ALL those areas, at the very least.

Since India holds all of the cards on the matter, and it is neither willing nor able to muster the political will, the only way Assam could effect those reforms would be thru independence or a very high degree of autonomy.

 

That is the bottom line.

 

 

c-da

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At 12:27 PM -0600 11/30/06, Ram Sarangapani wrote:

C'da,

 

Hope you don't mind my butting in.

 

For a change, lets us turn the tables around. Since you make most of the accusations about mal-governance etc, and since you never seem to accept any solutions to the myraid of problems many of us propose, let us see some of your solutions.

 

>If so, how do you propose to empower the IGNORANT POPULACE to fight back, >demand accountability and get it?

 

Ok - so how do you propose demanding accountability from the system. Now, if you believe that the populace in NOT ignorant, can you tell us why they have been silent all this while, what, and how do you propose that they get out from under this mess?

 

>You give a free pass to a colonialist Center, who steals from the many of Assam and >enriches a few by re-distributing it without exercising its controls over how it gets >disbursed or giving the

ignorant populace the tools of a functioning democratic >state to exercise their controls.

 

I don't think anyone is giving the Center a free pass. What most of us are saying is that there is a "responsibility" factor for Assam. The Center has its faults, but as we have stated over and over again, why have people in OTHER states fared better under the same dysfunctional system? What are they doing (or not doing) "different" than Assam?

 

What then is YOUR solution for Assam to at least be at par with some of the better states (at least in the areas in which they are functional)?

 

Your oft repeated quasi-solutions amounts to "change the system", "fix the dysfunctional democracy". Easier said than done, and one long-term solution that will come about.

 

Also, about the "colonist center" (Delhi) - would it help if Delhi were replaced by a "colonist Dispur" or a "colonist Dakha" vis-a-vis Assam? :)

 

>But the people of Assam has no business accepting such half-a**ed propositions

 

Fair enough. So, what is your grand plan for Assam?

How does Assam get out from under this inescapable tyranny from Delhi?

And we wait with bated breath:):)

 

--Ram

 

On 11/30/06, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Dear Sandip Dutta:

 

>That is the hallmark of an ignorant society. While the ones capable of making a >difference only want to reap undue benefits from high office, an equally >ignorant populace either goes about just accepting things or just >blaming the "centre" - for the centre is a convenient scapegoat.

 

 

** Was this not where we started?

 

If so, how do you propose to empower the IGNORANT POPULACE to fight back, demand accountability and get it?

 

** And would people blame the Center, if it did NOT CONTROL the resources, held the controls over the purse strings, set down the laws and devised the law-enforcement and adjudication mechanisms that do not work?

 

Who would YOU hold responsible under the circumstances and why?

 

Obviously you hold the ignorant Assam populace responsible, except you could not be bothered by the fact that the Indian system of laws and its enforcement

apparatus , that people in a democratic system use to control and fight CORRUPTION are dysfunctional, and would not raise your voice for REFORMS, while

criticizing those who do as "-- have nothing alternative to say".

 

You give a free pass to a colonialist Center, who steals from the many of Assam and enriches a few by re-distributing it without exercising its controls over how it gets disbursed or giving the ignorant populace

the tools of a functioning democratic state to exercise their controls.

 

And we are to think you are a part of that vaunted desi-knowledge-brigade and not a part of the IGNORANT POPULACE?

 

That is delusion, if not unmitigated gall, is how I see it.

 

 

>Corruption is endemic in the whole of south asia. It happens in Pakistan too on >an even much greater scale

 

*** Why not go a step further and include the whole world? After all it is a human trait, isn't it? And that is exactly why more intelligent people devised

ways to control it, by PUNISHING bad behavior and REWARDING good, something even the ranks of the ignorant populace understand-- as in raising children, but which seems to be beyond the grasp of apologists of desi-demokrasy.

 

Oh we know why! Because they know that India is incapable of change, of reforms.

So they settle for 'doing better' while remaining mired in  desi-governance.

To acknowledge it would pull the rug from under the feet of their argument that Assam's disaffections are imaginary, or that they are their own damn fault.

 

 

But the people of Assam has no business accepting such half-a**ed propositions.

 

 

>The reason is that many things actually work in those states. In Assam they >dont.

 

*** So how do you propose to CHANGE this? Puja? Prayers? Bribery of the gods? Internet Gaali? Or wishful thinking? What?

 

 

>Institutions have been built in the same way in both places - but how is it >they work in a few and dont in others?

 

*** If they do, why Pres. APJAK's calls for eradicating corruption, why the call for a commission to set up a HongKong style corruption fighting mechanism, why the call for STRICT enforcement of laws?

 

The big question he did not address was HOW he would accomplish all that ?

 

 

>Rather than just sit there and quote from pessimistic newspaper articles, a >bharat-darshan is long overdue for you.

 

*** I quote them to keep those who are either ignorant or are unwilling to see

the real truths about India, in line.

 

Yes, I would like to have a Bharat Darshan. But I don't think it will improve my perceptions of India, only worsen it. And I know Assam quite well, perhaps a whole lot more than most in this forum.

 

 

cm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At 2:20 AM -0800 11/30/06, SANDIP DUTTA wrote:

Dear Sir:

 

*******But since subtlety often goes unheeded, allow me to give some more clues and see if that helps

 

I got all your hints but your problem is that you keep hammering in the same old point and you have nothing alternative to say. You want to change the whole system? You could give us a few hints on what ideas you have and how you plan to go about it? Maybe we can then reflect on your noble thoughts?

 

My intention was never to sully Oxomiya society. Corruption is endemic in the whole of south asia. It happens in Pakistan too on an even much greater scale and they dont follow any version of our desi demokrasy - at least for now. But the question is why in spite of this problem, some states do better than others? In case you dont understand what I mean, ask yourself why so many Assamese have successful lives in Mumbai or Bangalore and would NOT consider returning and its not the other way round?

 

The reason is that many things actually work in those states. In Assam they dont.

 

If you want to understand the difference in the scale of corruption, you might want to compare how a Ticket collector behaves on a train in Kerala or Tamil Nadu compared to one in Assam.

 

Institutions have been built in the same way in both places - but how is it they work in a few and dont in others? Only the local controllers are to blame and no one else.

 

Rather than just sit there and quote from pessimistic newspaper articles, a bharat-darshan is long overdue for you. You will actually get to see differences in the way supposedly the SAME things work.

 

Rgds,

SD

 

----- Original Message ----
From: Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: SANDIP DUTTA <

[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;

assam@assamnet.org
Cc: Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 2:13:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] [asom] Assamese Fears and Saviours

Hi:

I did not follow up, hoping you will be able to connect the dots with the

not-so-subtle hints that I posted.

But since subtlety often goes unheeded, allow me to give some more clues and see if that helps. I will refrain from connecting the dots myself, because spoon-feeding usually is rejected by those who are sure they know the answers and are thus not to be patronized by others:

        *** WHY is it that all these representatives and their LEADERS,

        that the people of Assam elect, throw them out, elect them again,

        or elect a whole new slate or party in the fine traditions of

        desi-demokrasy; remain UNRESPONSIVE and as our philosophically

        endowed explain as "jeyei lankaloi jai, xeyei raabon hoy"

        ( whoever goes to Lanka, becomes a Ravan)?

        There is a serious problem here isn't it?

        *** Let us take the often bled-over subject of CORRUPTION that you

        raised, to smear the entire Oxomiya society as an uniquely sullied

        one and as Ram seconded.

        Is corruption hard to notice? If not how come NOTHING happens

        about it? Apparently Indian govt. system has ALL the institutional

        mechanisms that FUNCTIONING societies USE to investigate,prosecute

        adjudicate and punish the guilty with, at least on paper.

        And some of our learned friends also tell us that Indian judiciary is

        among the world's best.

        So, how come NO ONE gets convicted and get punished? What seems

        to be the matter?

        Punishment of the guilty is more than mere thirst for blood,

        yen for retribution. It is a deterrence. And in civilized

        societies it is also creates a social  stigma -- a very effective

         deterrence, because it smears friends, relatives, families as well.

        Deterrence comes in many forms.The most reliable and lasting deterrence

        is moral and ethical compunctions. We know that in western societies

        traditionally FAITH and RELIGION helped inculcate and EDUCATION

        that promotes critical inquiry helped spread and firmly embed it

        with an intellectual foundation.

        But moral and ethical compunctions are NEVER enough. I have

        argued many times in this forum, not very effectively obviously,

        that the state cannot depend entirely on the MORAL code: It

        also needs civil and criminal codes, that are ENFORCEABLE. That is why

        pronouncements like ABV's -- That 'people should NOT be so greedy',

        or APJAK's -- that ' that Manjunath was a righteous man who came

        from a righteous family and  we must strive to make

        more righteous families.'or MMS' that 'your CMs can make all the

        laws in the world, but what will you do with them'  are so

        abysmally clueless as corruption fighting steps.

        *** You gave us a fairly reasonable account of how the monies spent

        in Assam for building roads do not produce the results expected. I

        posted Tavleen Singh's columns to demonstrate that Assam is not unique

        in this predicament, that it is 'pervasive across the length and

        breadth of India'.

        It was NOT, as some of you simple-mindedly assume, to absolve

        Assam govt. of its sins. Some in the past even made the scatologically

        smearing  Oxomiya observation " moi  gu-khaale toi-w khabi neki ?"

        So WHY do I cite them?

        For a very important reason: To show that nowhere in India

        the CORRUPT are/could be held accountable.

        *** Now I want YOU to figure that out. Give it a little thought.

        I like to think you are more than able to. But I also realize that you

         and others like you, never having seen any different, and never paying

         attention elsewhere in the world where they might have lived, failed

        to NOTICE why or how.

        But again I will give you some clues: Read my note to Dilip Deka and

        ex-Chief Secy. JP Rajkhowa on Nov. 18. If you don't have access to

        it, let me know, I will be pleased to re-send.

        *** I like to think you are sincere in your efforts to understand

        the issues. Therefore I hope to receive a response. We don't know

        many things. It is NOT a sin not to know things. I always argue

        that I don't OWE it to anyone to know ANYTHING, much less EVERYTHING.

        But if you go silent, like so many others often do, it will mean

        only one thing: That you are NOT sincere about your motives. That

        ALL you are interested in is asserting Assamese disaffections are

        Oxomiya society's own damn fault, 'So don't bother me with facts!'

        -- like you did when you began this thread.

        cm

    

    

At 3:49 AM -0800 11/29/06, SANDIP DUTTA wrote:

Dear Sir,

 

Whats new in this article?

 

This is the same point I was trying to make but you said I was ignorant (perhaps you didnt get it :-) ). WE too have local Sharad Pawars and Thakreys right here in Assam and they do the same things with central allocated money. Guwahati's moonscaped "roads" tell the same story of corruption and deprivation originating right here at home.

 

Rgds,

Sandip

 

----- Original Message ----
From: Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:

assam@assamnet.org; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; SANDIP DUTTA <

[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 2:17:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Assam] [asom] Assamese Fears and Saviours

I am re-posting the following for Ram and Sandip Dutta to read, before I return back to the discussions.

cm




Horrible  Condition of our Roads
On the Spot
  Tavleen Singh

The first convoy of  official cars I encountered, driving to Pune
last week, flew saffron flags on every car of the size you normally

see atop temples. My driver  spotted Bal Thakeray in one of the white
ambassadors. No sooner did we  pass Mcdonald's in Panvel (a
travellers' watering hole) than I  spotted another official convoy.
This time no saffron flags, only a car  filled with policemen in

front of a grey Land Cruiser behind which was another car also filled
with policemen and officials. Alone in the back  of the Land Cruiser
sat Sharad Pawar.

The coincidence of  encountering Maharashtra's two most powerful

political leaders on the same journey made me reflect upon the role
of politics in preventing  India from building the infrastructure it
so badly needs. Pawar and  Thakeray would have driven down the same

road I had taken from Mumbai so  they could not have failed to notice
its condition. It is no longer a  road so much as a dirt track on
which you bump your way from ditch to ditch to ditch. This is after

you have driven bumper to bumper past  Chembur's hideous slums where

public toilets are so clogged that  people prefer to squat along the
main road beside the rotting garbage in  which pigs, dogs and
barefoot children scrabble for food. Did Mr Pawar  notice? Did Mr
Thakeray who has built a political career out of inciting  Marathi

pride?

Mumbai is Maharashtra's  proudest possession. Any talk of it being
taken out of the State Government's control causes hackles to rise
across political divisions  and yet none of this State's mighty

leaders appears to have paid any  attention to the most basic
requirements of social infrastructure: clean  water, sanitation and
housing. Had they paid attention, then instead of  slums in Chembur
there would have been affordable housing for the poor.

Instead of evil slum  lords there would have been legitimate real
estate companies controlling  the housing market.

As for the dreadful  condition of Indian roads, please allow nobody
to fool you into believing that our roads are bad because of a
shortage of funds. They  are bad mainly because they have been built

to last no longer than a  single season of rain. Why? Perhaps because
the contractors who build  them are well connected enough to be given

the same contract every year.  You notice this more on the drive from
Mumbai to Pune than on any other  road because when you get onto the
expressway you realize that India can  build roads that do not

collapse with the rain.

Once you get onto the  expressway you drive along the best road in
India that has remained  totally intact despite this year's
unprecedented rainfall. When I  asked a friend in the construction

business why this was so he said,  "Simple. The Mumbai-Pune
expressway was built by responsible  construction companies with

reputations to protect. Usually roads are  built either by faceless

CPWD engineers or by small contractors with big  connections."

So one of the flaws in  the system is that political leaders hand out
major road contracts to builders who would not pre-qualify to build a

public toilet in a more  sensible country. The reason for this is
that the system we devised for  these things places total emphasis on
cost and none on quality. He who  makes the lowest bid wins the
contract, so to cover his costs he cuts  corners and uses cheap

materials and outdated technology.

He could not care less  if the road he builds does not survive a
single monsoon because he has,  more often than not, a connection
high up enough for him to get the  contract to rebuild the road again

and again. This is true across the  length and breadth of our dear
Bharat Mata which is why we are  internationally renowned for having

the worst roads in the world.

I got off the  expressway at Chinchwad which is one of Maharashtra's
leading  industrial towns. Many of India's biggest manufacturing
companies have  factories here and the municipality is believed to be

one of our richest  but the road I drove down was so narrow and
gutted that I was stuck in  an hour long traffic jam consisting
mainly of massive articulated  lorries with names like MAERSK painted
on their sides. The eternal clash between the new 'emerging' economy

and our ancient, socialist  infrastructure.

The clash would not exist if only we  could get our political leaders
to understand that unless they put  infrastructure (both social and
physical) at the top of their list of  priorities we will still be

talking about our 'potential' to be an  economic superpower fifty
years from now. If we can just build the roads  and do something
about the appalling state of our cities and towns we  can start
making our economic superpower dream a reality in the next  five

years. These were the gloomy thoughts of your humble columnist as I
drove past a sign that warned motorists to be careful on the upcoming

bridge because its condition was 'dangerous.' If we were really on

our way to superpowerdom then instead of the sign we would have seen
a  repaired bridge. I could go on and on and on.

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