Ram:
And you will also have noticed that many of us have also pointed
this out numerous times >here.
*** To tell you the truth I have NOT seen those being pointed out
here, except by one or perhaps two persons :-), whose views are
usually rejected by the defenders of desi-demokrasy.
You can contribute YOUR fair share by speaking out and pointing to
the issues that YOU see as problems Ram :-). That will place you at a
level much higher than the average desi-intelligentsia who is either
clueless or apathetic or defensive or a tossed-salad of all. The
desi-intelligentsia's ABSENCE from their governance is one of its
most glaring deficiencies as *I* see it.
To them even malgoveranance, corruption etc in Assam are also
traced back to India - its >India's damn fault.
*** WHOSE fault do you think it is Ram? Why don't YOU tell us who it
is/they are
and tell us what share of the blame they carry as seen by a
fair-and-balanced person such as yourself. And I am sure you will
also give us a little explanation of WHY you believe who the
responsible parties are.
So, maybe it NOT because they want to "destroy" India, but when they
showcase these problems >in India, they seem to think that these are
justifications for Assam to be free from the >clutches of the evil
empire.
*** Well,YOU can tell us WHY it is NOT a reason to leave India's
dysfunctional system. Go ahead and tell the 'India-haters' how Assam
can do well by itself , all on its own, still being controlled by
Delhi's designs. I am sure you will cite here those OTHERS who are
doing splendidly on their own and how Assam can emulate them, won't
you?
Oh! I knew you would bring that up. But you fail to realize that
what Ahmad is >advocating for at the moment is all about
Bangladesh. He is NOT advocating that >Bangladesh be broken up nor
is he advocating the separation of say Khulna >district because
Dhaka is incorrigible.
*** You avoided asking the question that I gave you as the clue to
the answer . Try asking that question Ram. WHY did B'Desh break from
THEIR 'original' COUNTRY, Pakistan? And why did Indians like you
applauded when that happened?
I know it is one of those extremely unpalatable questions that tend
to get stuck in the craws of desi-patriots. But if you try hard
enough it will come out. And believe me, it would be a whole lot
better than to present an explanation like you did above . It is
unbecoming if you asked me :-).
ah! but you are jumping the gun here. IF Assam were already
independent, and >then I would have joined hands here in advocating
a better, democratic, >corruption-free Assam :)
*** I know you would Ram. I remember that well. Isn't it the credo of the POOR
folks ( Probaxi Oxomiyas Opposed to Reforms)? Or was it of the
Probaxi Oxomiyas Conditionally Opposed to Reforms :-)?
I would rather advocate as Ahmad does for the betterment of the
country that >exists at the moment - INDIA :).
*** Once again, show your credibility by explaining HOW. That would
shut them 'anti-Indians' up.
Bottom line C'd, one would be more amenable if criticisms against
India's >system of governance etc,
*** But that is not a problem for those who are VICTIMS of Indian
misgovernment.
That is a problem only for those who are in charge of perpetuating
the make-believe, of holding that facade of desi-demokrasy up to the
world.
c-da
At 1:27 PM -0600 3/23/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da,
Sorry for not getting back earlier.
>Say NO to those who point it out, because it is anti-Indian,
because it is merely a ploy to >DESTROY India ?
I wish it were as simple as that. I think almost everyone in this
forum will agree that there are big problems with India's (and
Assam's) governance, equitable justice, and the "system". And you
will also have noticed that many of us have also pointed this out
numerous times here.
The difference between the critics (if you will) is that some are
hell-bent to find fault with India's governance as some sort of
conduit for their aspirations of Assam's independence. To them even
malgoveranance, corruption etc in Assam are also traced back to
India - its India's damn fault.
So, maybe it NOT because they want to "destroy" India, but when they
showcase these problems in India, they seem to think that these are
justifications for Assam to be free from the clutches of the evil
empire.
>Remember Ahmad's COUNTRY used to be Pakistan? What happened to it?
And WHY? Ever >asked that question?
Oh! I knew you would bring that up. But you fail to realize that
what Ahmad is advocating for at the moment is all about
Bangladesh. He is NOT advocating that Bangladesh be broken up nor is
he advocating the separation of say Khulna district because Dhaka is
incorrigible.
>*** And those of Assam who look out for its interests are FOR a
"--united and truly >democratic Assam--" unlike those who are
dedicated to see it NOT happen :-).
ah! but you are jumping the gun here. IF Assam were already
independent, and then I would have joined hands here in advocating a
better, democratic, corruption-free Assam :).
Since, Assam is not an independent country, and nor does it seem
likely it will be for at least another 50 to 100 years (if not
never), I would rather advocate as Ahmad does for the betterment of
the country that exists at the moment - INDIA :).
Bottom line C'd, one would be more amenable if criticisms against
India's system of governance etc, if the "INTENT" was to create a
better, improved India, where its a win-win situation for all. :):)
---Ram
On 3/22/07, Chan Mahanta
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
Ram:
>And C'da, you hit the nail right on the head. Having read the
article (several >times over), I completely agree with you. I
too can see the "misgovernment" in >the Indian context.
**** And----???????
Say NO to those who point it out, because it is anti-Indian, because
it is merely a ploy to DESTROY India ?
Isn't this the best the Indian intelligentsia has been doing for
decades: AGREE something is wrong, but what CAN THEY DO about it?
Sorry to see YOU in the ranks of the clueless Ram :-). What is your
excuse?
>It is intriguing, that Ahmad has NOT followed some in the
subcontinent who seek to >divide their country.
*** HMMM! Glad you found something tasty to bite into :-). But
aren't we missing something here? Remember Ahmad's COUNTRY used to
be Pakistan? What happened to it? And WHY? Ever asked that question?
Ask it. And ye shall find the answer staring at you.
>Ahmad is for a united, and a truely democratic Bangaldesh.
*** And those of Assam who look out for its interests are FOR a
"--united and truly democratic Assam--" unlike those who are
dedicated to see it NOT happen :-).
c-da
At 6:14 PM -0500 3/21/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
Thank you Mukul da for forwarding this article by Ahmad.
And C'da, you hit the nail right on the head. Having read the
article (several times over), I completely agree with you. I too can
see the "misgovernment" in the Indian context.
I am quoting some of the sentences that Ahmad writes. They intrigue
me. (Highlights mine)
>I have spent hours debating, discussing and arguing about the
developments in > my country, often told 'why you bother when none
of this affects you, when your >opinions would make little
difference if at all'.
>I wondered on the comments yet my brain continues to think,
the >love for my motherland is on the rise and is showing no sign
of >abating.
And, quite a few more lines like the above. Ahmad, obviously has a
lot of love and respect for his country. In spite of his take that
his country has given him precious little, he still has a great
interest and is seeking ways to improve the lot of his country.
It is intriguing, that Ahmad has NOT followed some in the
subcontinent who seek to divide their country. Nor does he seek
independence for one portion or the other because he feels his
country's leaders are useless. Nor does he take up arms because the
system is broken, and there is malgovernance.
He is able to visualize all the problems, but is able to think
positively on ways to rebuild his country.
There is a big difference between what Ahmad is advocating and what
some netters may be thinking. Ahmad is for a united, and a truely
democratic Bangaldesh. This in definitely NOT what some of our
esteemed netters have in store for India :):)
--Ram
On 3/20/07, Chan Mahanta
<<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This is a thinking man! Those Netters who read the article
carefully, will see the image of their own Indian misgovernment
reflected here, accurately. He has his fingers exactly on the
problems, even though the solution proposed, while being one of the
elements of a series of measures, is not entirely adequate.
Ahmad is right about the party loyalty as a source of the problem.
It is the same thing as electioneering on party lines and NOT on
ISSUES. But it is only one of the problems. Another big issue is the
effectiveness of the INSTITUTIONS of democracy. Yet another is the
ability to make the able and the willing to participate in their
governance.
I highlight some of the points below, because we discussed these
too. Unfortunately our netters were unwilling to see what stares at
them. Perhaps this article will sink in a tad bit better :-).
At 11:02 PM +0530 3/20/07, mc mahant wrote:
By Talha J Ahmad, UK
I have written extensively on the current crisis engulfing my
country. I have spent many nights and day, many hours of my busy
life far away from my homeland, I have spent hours debating,
discussing and arguing about the developments in my country, often
told 'why you bother when none of this affects you, when your
opinions would make little difference if at all'. I wondered on the
comments yet my brain continues to think, the love for my motherland
is on the rise and is showing no sign of abating.
I wondered about the past of my country, present and the future. I
wondered of the patriotism of my leaders, political and otherwise, I
wonder even now of the patriotism and the genuine motives of the
current government, I wonder of the extraordinary remarks of our
head of Armed forces. My wondering comes to no end, it continues
without an end on the horizon. But why do I wonder? I pondered on
possible answers to my paradox, but found none credible. However, I
guess I can confidently say all these wondering of my mind is a
process instigated by my feeling and concerns for my country, a
country that has not given me much, but I still feel indebted to. It
is my love and affection for my country, my genuine desire to see
her flourish with all her children, my firm belief on her potential
that keeps telling me to wonder further and as part of that process
I seek to speculate on some ideas.
The turn of 20th century has been marked by freedom movement,
wanting to be free from repressions, colonization. People wanted to
be free to speak, to earn and to work. Freedom movement led us to
have new states with new political culture.
The triumph of the last century however was the end of love for
dictatorship and the rising of a new era for democracy. Democracy
seemed to have offered hope to bring about social justice and
economic freedom. Democracy has shown us sign of empowering people
and giving all citizens a way of being their own master, the master
of owns destiny.
But what has democracy really earned us? Or have we got the right
kind of democracy? Our nation for instance paid heavily for
democracy, from the days of East Pakistan to present, many hundreds
of thousands of people marched at different times to ensure
democracy prospers in our land. People were made hopeful; every one
expected a better life. It was the prospect of democracy that leads
us to the bitter struggle for freedom, the war of independence; we
earned independence only to march again to slay the leaders of that
independence. We hoped of economic development, the betterment of
education, life standard, justice and equality, we have achieved
some progress but we cannot certainly say that we would have not
achieved these prosperity without all the bloods that we had to
spare.
We marched, we fought, and we sacrificed to achieve economic
freedom, social justice and equality in a country where we all would
be equal participants. We hoped that in our country we would have no
masters; people in power would be accountable. We rebelled against
dictators because we thought they were not accountable to us. But
democracy does not seem to have offered us accountability either.
Our current government for example, they are said to be good, but
how do we hold them accountable? How would people seek to redress
any wrongdoing committed by current government? We have no true
accountability. Only might and might alone seem to have its way in
terms of accountability, but not people. Ordinary man and women do
not seem to have the power to hold social elites accountable. But
this presents us with a dilemma.
We have to have government, we have to have some kind of people's
participation in the governance of our country, and we must have
some means to hold our governments accountable. But how? In lands of
England, the Birth place of modern parliamentary democracy, there
are disaffections, the parliament elections are at times attended by
as low as only 37% of the population. Famous names with huge
reputation in politics raising their concern regarding
accountability.
A former cabinet minister went as far as saying the current
parliamentary system is not capable of holding the executive
accountable, and she has decided to stand down as an MP from her
party in order to campaign for a change, for a better, more
representative and accountable system. If that is the condition of
democracy in the land of where it was born, I think we can get a
pretty good idea as to where we stand. Our MPs are like our lords,
they are the king, queen, whatever one may wish to think. Our
ministers are the most powerful of people so much so that they can
get away with whatever they wish, so it seems. But how we change
such situation?
Dr. Yunus and many others seem to think that corruption is the
culprit and good people entering politics may be the answer. Dr.
Yunus himself decided to put his reputation and hard earned
celebrity status on the line. He will form a new political party
that will raise the hopes and aspiration of our nation. But he will
be joining a system that has failed us, there is nothing to suggest
that it was not systems fault too that we ended up with 'bad'
politicians. So I wonder why a Yunus factor should make me feel
good. I do not want to think that one man can change my country, I
do not believe in super human. I would like to think it is not just
a few people who are the problem; I would like to think that there
is something with system too.
We have a very large number of educated people now, working in good
jobs. Yet many struggling to find an appropriate job. We now have a
new generation of middle class and affluent people. We no longer see
the generation of trade unionists, nor do we see the peculiar scenes
of student politics. The politics of fighting to take control of
universities seem to have lessened to some extent. The trend among
the youths no longer is as strong towards joining politics as it
used to be. And that in some way is a bad sign. And I think therein
lies the first problem.
Increasing economic sophistication made our societies complex. The
advancement in technology made our world a global village. But that
means our affairs now have more factors in it, our affairs now
involve a much wider ecosystem and not just us. Bangladesh is part
of the global community, and our problems needs to be thought from
global perspective too, which obviously means our affairs are now
more complex and requires much sophisticated solutions. Our thinking
however has not sophisticated; politically we are now less mature
and less sophisticated. Our politics remain the same in terms of its
norms and fundamental roles.
A complex society requires extraordinary citizens who have
intellectual sophistication, citizens need to be more aware and
better knowledgeable of situations, but that has not happened to our
new generation that has grown into the mainstream society now. So
what we need is a social class who command the society with
understanding and clear vision. We need a new kind of social
movement that seek to re-energize our citizens by making them
intellectually sharper, more demanding and sophisticate. We need
social movement to instill in our citizens patriotism and give them
a common vision of our future.
Of course it is not enough to have a new social movement that will
create a new class of citizens who will be intellectually rich,
politically aware and sophisticated in their thinking. We need
political forces and platforms that will make good use of this new
class.
We need political platform and political leaderships who understand
and conform to the desire of the people and rise to the challenge of
building a new society. But it is probably now fair to say that the
current parliamentary, party political system has failed. It is not
so evident because the failure is covered by other issues such as
corruption and the style of governance.
But why do we have corruption? Corruption is merely the symptom of a
bigger, much wider failure. An effective government which is
accountable to its citizens cannot be corrupt, it is not possible.
So if government or people within government become corrupt and the
system cannot stop it, it is the systems fault and not those who
actually are corrupt. The accountability issues is not just a big
issue in our country, it is an issue all over the world now. UK, USA
and most western countries have the problem too.
Current prevailing system of governance is that of the cabinet who
are elected along the party political line. Political arguments are
presented along the party identity. Loyalty lies to the party.
Because of the party system which has strong disciplinary force that
seeks to suppress certain views and promote certain others it is
difficult to have true accountability. Largest party in government
occupies the position of power, when the other parties attack the
government, the whole party behind the government stand in defense.
As long as the party remains largest, there is no way we can hold
the government accountable. Some times, even all the major parties
have no significant difference between them, who should people
choose in those circumstances? Due to the existence of political
parties, once again new initiatives and thinking cannot take root.
It is not a level playing field, yet the whole essence of democracy
is that all citizens should have equal opportunities. I therefore
intend to resolve that we need to fight to break the party system;
we need a new kind of politics in which citizens participate freely
without party loyalty.
We should have one broad vision to unite us that is our patriotism
and our desire to form a better society. Apart from that we should
all come to play with ideas to tackle our social issues. If we can
truly demolish the party controls we can have an energize population
where people will make their case, articulate their ideas and in the
end passionate people with articulated ideas will be charged with
responsibility to govern. We will have true democracy, we will have
genuine accountability.
Of course, some would say that this is an unworkable system; I would
argue we cannot be so sure. Of course we need some kind of
organization. But that organization does not have to be along the
party lines. Our local meeting places, auditoriums, libraries and
social clubs could be the place to debate. A new consensus will
emerge. We can have our civil society to guide the nation in its
argument. We could have our academics, entrepreneurs and others to
influence and inform debates through their participation. But that
will mark a new kind of politics which will have no place for
dynasty, no room for one man dominance and no room for corruption.
No one will be strong enough to have it all, and no body will be too
weak to have a say. Such society would be a genuinely democratic
society where social justice and equality will thrive, human dignity
shall flourish
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