C-da,
Sitting in US for long perhaps you have forgotten that there already exists
27% quotas in govt jobs and educational institutions in India -- unlike USA.
Now the demand is that the already privileaged be included in this quota
--which is not justified.
Umesh
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
U:
>In most cases it is the politicians (of mostly opposition parties) who start
such mass protests - and >demand for reservation -- thats what happened in
Rajasthan before the last state elections when the >high-caste powerful groups
demanded reservation for themselves - to suppport any party in elections- >nd
got it --under current BJP rule.
*** And since it was started by politicians it is NOT legitimate?
That is HOW democracy works Umesh. People look to their representatives,
elected or even unelected . Usually they are politicians. But BEFORE they
instigate their flocks to take to the streets usually there are signs of a
trouble brewing. It does not come like hurricane Katrina in a week's notice. A
DEMOCRATIC government would usually respond to a mass disaffection brewing.
They would NOT stonewall, or pretend they hear or see anything. And if they
do, they should be held ACCOUNTABLE, which is an alien word in desi-demokrasy.
So they would make unreasonable demands, won't they?
ALL demands are UNREASONABLE when there is no desire or intent to give
anything up. But that is not how democracy works. If it is patently
unreasonable, or unconstitutional, they should be adjudicated in a RELIABLE (
one that cannot be bought by the powers in control or the highest briber) court
of law. Otherwise there will have to be a GIVE and TAKE.
c-da
At 8:21 AM -0700 6/1/07, umesh sharma wrote:
C-da, How can you be so naive. In most cases it is the politicians (of
mostly opposition parties) who start such mass protests - and demand for
reservation -- thats what happened in Rajasthan before the last state elections
when the high-caste powerful groups demanded reservation for themselves - to
suppport any party in elections- and got it --under current BJP rule. Umesh
Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ram:
All that is fine.
Conflicts arise from many different reasons. Economics is one. But it does
not somehow make it out-of-bounds for resolution thru a political process ,
with adequate governmental response to the issues, when they begin to surface.
That would prevent it from degenerating into violent protests, like it has in
Rajasthan, like it did in Assam nearly thirty years ago. Other examples are
well detailed in Mohan Guruswamy's Terminating with Extreme Prejudice!
forwarded by mcm this morning.
The fact is that the UNACCOUNTABLE Indian govt. with democratic pretensions,
is little more than a fiefdom of powerful groups and entrenched interests, who
REFUSE to address these conflicts when they begin to appear, let them fester,
and when violence erupts, sends out the army to shoot them down. Indian courts,
long dysfunctional and corrupt to the core, further bogged down by an
incredible 30 year back log, are thoroughly useless as a means of conflict
resolution to the point that Indian intelligentsia does not even think of it as
a possible INSTITUTION of DEMOCRACY at their disposal: A fact demonstrated in
this forum routinely by some of the country's most educated and informed,
including High-court advocates, and NRAs living in developed democracies for
decades.
Poverty and paucity of resources as an excuse for an absence of the attitude
of responsiveness to constituents' concerns and an absence of functioning
conflict resolution institutions in what is advertised as a democracy, does
NOT FLY. And to suggest that these conflicts can turn violent leading to
military or police firings and killing of their own people by the dozens at a
time, routinely, BECAUSE India is DEMOCRATIC is an appalling spin Ram . You are
doing a disservice to your fellow Indians by telling them such bizarre stories
about what a democracy is :-).
c-da
At 8:31 AM -0600 6/1/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
C'da
>*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy and
egregious spin on India's behavior
>I have heard so far Ram.
I am trying to differentiate here: The Gujars and the Meenas are clashing in
Rajasthan - basically one group does not want the other to get ST status (while
they, themselves should). Without going into the details who should and who
shouldn't, the basic underpinning of this whole this is Economics.
Neither the Gujars or the Meenas (IMHO) would be so concerned of their
Scheduled Tribe Status if there were jobs and other resources aplenty. After
all - the 6th Schedule is only in the Constitution - and whether it is or isn't
the Gujars and the Meenas will remain whatever they have been - Tribes or
non-Tribes. So, why the big rushing need to be included in the 6th - Jobs and
oppturnities.
A mjor cause to most of India's problems (including ULFA ) can be traced to
economics, wants and needs, as opposed to "we are separate cultural identity"
argument per se. I would even go a bit further - sometimes even "demands" for
the preservation cultural identities ties back to economics. Hence, such
cultural identities prove to be a boon - hence, Marathis/Bodos/Assamese or in
this case Gujars or Meenas form numbers to jostle for better economic benefits.
The other thing to fact is political power - ie. politicians play one group
against the other for such power.
--Ram
On 6/1/07, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India because its a
democracy and they happen >because there is NOT enough to go around. It does
not happen in the US because most of the most >common things have already been
met.
*** That is about the most convoluted explanation of democracy and egregious
spin on India's behavior I have heard so far Ram.
At 10:34 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
Oh! I forgot, C'da
LA riots (after the OJ Simpson thing), NY Black out . maybe I am forgetting
a few.
But you are right, the US has far fewer of such riots than India or most of
the up & coming economies do. And that can be attributed, in general, to the
limited resources, and too many people these countries have.
If some of the countries have democracies, there are demonstrations, protests
etc - which often go haywire. If they are NOT democratic then they can be
quelled swiftly.
The right to bandhs, hartals, strikes are possible in India because its a
democracy and they happen because there is NOT enough to go around. It does
not happen in the US because most of the most common things have already been
met.
--Ram
On 5/31/07, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to expand on,
I am sure).
*** Yes, but we are comparing apples and oranges.
>Elian Gonzalez
** It was case of enforcement of a court order. No one was killed if I am not
mistaken.
>Ruby Ridge
*** It was a case of criminal kidnapping.
>David Koresh
*** Again a criminal case of confinement and refusal to submit to a court
order, leading to a police/paramiltary raid, to defy which the inmates of the
commune committed mass suicide.
None of these were anything akin to political /social disaffections , ignored
by authorities, leading to demonstrations that turned into rioting terminated
by military /police firing against their OWN PEOPLE.
At 8:29 AM -0600 5/31/07, Ram Sarangapani wrote:
Just to butt in here a bit.
In the US, we have several examples (which C'da will be glad to expand on, I
am sure).
Elian Gonzalez
Ruby Ridge
David Koresh
In the last two, (it wasn't the US Army) but paramil. forces - people got
killed
On 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Still waiting to hear what happens in similar situations in US of A - say
like if some African Americans were to protest again over Hurricane Katrina?
Maybe we should learn and implement similar policies here.
Do they get 125 yrs jail...or Guantanamo Bay?.......or there's political
settlement?
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: umesh sharma < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: SANDIP DUTTA < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Chan Mahanta < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
[email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:56:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gujar
it confirms my opinion that Gujjars are not that backward -- in comparison to
the tribes /castes who are in SC ST category -- nobody oppresses them - but
they are maig this demand after upper caste have got 10% reservation in
Rajasthan and Jats -another dominant warrior caste (rules Alwar and Haryana)
has been included in OBC category by former Congress govt. of Rajasthan
Umesh
SANDIP DUTTA <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Think deeper" - he he!
How much deep info did you have about Meenas, Gujjars etc in Rajasthan? -
before you read the BBC report?
And you already decided it was a legitimate demand?
BTW, you didnt answer what happens in the US of A.
Rgds,
Sandip
----- Original Message ----
From: Chan Mahanta < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: SANDIP DUTTA < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Chandan Mahanta < [EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
[email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 11:10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
Sandip:
You need to to think a little DEEPER!
WHY did RIOTING have to take place to begin with? Did these people wake up
one fine morning and decided, : Heck, things are dull, let us go burn some
buses today and cut-off policemen's limbs?
Think about it and come back with your questions again.
sd
At 6:06 AM -0700 5/31/07, SANDIP DUTTA wrote:
Hello Sondon Da,
As far as I understand, police and RAF are meant to maintain law & order and
prevent rioters getting out of hand. Thats their job. Army is called in only
when situation gets out of control. Same approach is applied everywhere. Local
Admin calls in the army. In this case, Rajasthan police had no experience
handling anything of this kind in the last many decades.
May we know what approach is taken towards rioters who use violence as a form
of protest and then try justifying it - in the worlds greatest demokrasy - your
home, the United EStates of Amrika? I mean people who damage govt. property,
possibly kill and maim others and try to undermine state authority?
Rgds,
SD
----- Original Message ----
From: Chandan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:59:35 AM
Subject: [Assam] BBC E-mail: Army deployed after India riots
Chandan Mahanta saw this story on the BBC News website and thought you
should see it.
** Message **
This is typical of the Indian state's conflict resolution program, which has
not changed in sixty years after freedom.
** Army deployed after India riots **
Troops are deployed in India's Rajasthan state after 14 people are killed in
clashes over government job quotas.
< http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/6703133.stm >
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Ed.M. - International Education Policy
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Washington D.C.
1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
Ed.M. - International Education Policy
Harvard Graduate School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005
http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )
http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/
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Umesh Sharma
Washington D.C.
1-202-215-4328 [Cell]
Ed.M. - International Education Policy
Harvard Graduate School of Education,
Harvard University,
Class of 2005
http://www.uknow.gse.harvard.edu/index.html (Edu info)
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/ (Management Info)
www.gse.harvard.edu/iep (where the above 2 are used )
http://jaipurschool.bihu.in/
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