*** And this is more of the same. When have American mobs butcher brownskinned people , while being instigated byleaders of its communities and the law lookingthe other way? Is there even a modicum of truth? To continue, c'da, Maybe not brown-skinned, but definitely blacks. Missisippi - It took nearly forty + years to convict one old man, onlythe other day, and that too in a country that boasts itself as thecradle of modern democratic values? How many were prosecuted for the LA riots, where the White trucker was killed? How many were prosecuted for the great NY blackout riots? So, it does happen here too, inspite it being the most organized anddeveloped country, where everything is in place. No, there is no mob going after brown-skinned people in the US, butpeople do get incited into a frenzy and form into mobs that often goviolent, and no one is prosecuted. The riots of LA and NY aretestimonials. --Ram
On 8/11/05, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> > >I tried to drive home that very point. I brought up the Sikh> >bodyguards, because events perpetuated by ONE group (in this case the> >Sikhs) had a devastating effect on the whole nation.> > > **** You are missing the whole point- entirely, Ram.> > Because two Sikhs killed Indira Gandhi, does it> mean ALL Sikhs are guilty of that? Or should ALL> Sikhs be held responsible for that?> > NOT all Sikhs conspired to have IG assassinated,> did they? Did even ALL the Khalistani movement> partisans conspire to have IG's bodyguards kill> her?> > > Your arguments are NO different from the mobs> here Ram. Not a a tad bit different.> > > > >Mobs, as we have seen time and again DO NOT know how to differentiate> >between the culprits and the inocent bystander who just 'looks like'> >the killers.> > > **** Mobs are not made of inanimate objects that> behave in accordance with Newton's laws. They are> human beings. Or so one would! expect them to be,> anyway,and thus slightly different from inanimate> objects.> Are the Modis, the Togadias, the Bhagats and> Tytlers expected to act like inanimate objects?> Would you subscribe to that notion Ram?> > > > >My point is this: The sad ground realities are that Sikhs or other> >groups planning such crimes ought to be aware that their actions may> >affect the very communities they are trying to protect.> > **** This is a really unbelievable argument here,> certainly not one of your better ones Ram.> > > > >Be it in India or even in organized countries like the US> >where Indians are looked at in suspicion (after 9/11) even though they> >had nothing to do with the Saudis.> > > *** And this is more of the same. When have American mobs butcher brown> skinned people , while being instigated by> leaders of its communities and the law looking> the other way? Is there even a modicum of truth?> The criminal who shot up the Sikh gas station> attendant at Phoenix, got t! he death penalty.> > How many desis were even prosecuted for the Sikh> pogroms and Muslim pogroms in India? How long did> it take the Nanavati Commission to prepare a> watered down, white-wash job of a 'fact-finding'> investigation--not a prosecution ? Twenty one> years Ram. Twenty one long years! That in the> world's largest democracy, the seat of a five> thousand years old 'civilization'(?)!> > > >But, I do concur with you that people should be able to differentiate> >the perpetuators from the innocent.> > > **** That is fundamental to a civilized society> with a rule of law Ram. Where are the MORAL> leaders of these people, your people and mine?> > > > c-da> > > > > > > > > > > > > At 2:39 PM -0500 8/11/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote:> >C'da,> >> >> **** Nothing could be further from the truth. I> >> agree with Khuswant Singh, that the Nanavati> >> Report is an insult, that> >> >I wasn't talking about the report itself, but the fact that the PM> >even at this late stage co! uld apologize to the nation. That in it self> >would bring some closure.> >> >> **** I am very disappointed here Ram, that even> >> YOU do not differentiate between an individuals'> >> or a group of individuals' crime and the whole> >> group or clan or religion these individuals> >> >I tried to drive home that very point. I brought up the Sikh> >bodyguards, because events perpetuated by ONE group (in this case the> >Sikhs) had a devastating effect on the whole nation.> >> >Mobs, as we have seen time and again DO NOT know how to differentiate> >between the culprits and the inocent bystander who just 'looks like'> >the killers. Be it in India or even in organized countries like the US> >where Indians are looked at in suspicion (after 9/11) even though they> >had nothing to do with the Saudis.> >> >My point is this: The sad ground realities are that Sikhs or other> >groups planning such crimes ought to be aware that their actions may> >affect the very communities they are ! trying to protect. This is> >specially true when one belongs to a minority community and mob> >violence is just a match-stick away. We can present all the logic we> >want about such differentiation, but the stark realities are just the> >opposite.> >> >But, I do concur with you that people should be able to differentiate> >the perpetuators from the innocent.> >> >--Ram> >> >On 8/11/05, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> >> Ram:> >>> >> > >At least it gives some closure to people who> >> >lost their loved ones.> >>> >>> >> **** Nothing could be further from the truth. I> >> agree with Khuswant Singh, that the Nanavati> >> Report is an insult, that it is too little, too> >> late. I will forward his article and others' when> >> I get a chance.> >>> >>> >>> >> > >Why would Sikh bodyguards assasinate the PM? I am not sure about> >> >Godhra, but whats bandied about is that muslim groups cast the first> >> >stone by killing the 'Hindu' political workers, and t! hings started> >> >spreading to other areas.> >>> >>> >> **** I am very disappointed here Ram, that even> >> YOU do not differentiate between an individuals'> >> or a group of individuals' crime and the whole> >> group or clan or religion these individuals> >> belong to or identify with, from being held> >> guilty and mob justice meted out on ALL of them.> >>> >> I did not read the author's intent to blame the> >> Hindus. Why should ALL Hindus take responsibility> >> for the abominations inspired by Togadia or> >> Thakre' or Modi or HKL Bhagat or Tytler? Cannot> >> they reason?> >>> >> Of course, when one resigns to the fact that that> >> one's humanity is an unfathomable and alien> >> concept or rule of law is just a convenient flag> >> to wave, and the absence of justice is a fact of> >> life that should not be questioned or> >> challenged, even in this day and age; not much> >> could be expected.> >>> >> It speaks very poorly of a nation and its> >> ! culture, its civilization or absence of it.> >>> >> c-da> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> At 1:16 PM -0500 8/11/05, Ram Sarangapani wrote:> >> >C'da,> >> >> >> >This article and others for the last few days do reflect on the> >> >violence that crop up time to time in India.> >> >> >> >I am glad that the likes of Jadish Tytler was forced to resign. Its> >> >also sad that the attrocities on innocent Sikhs took 20 years to even> > > >be recognized. Its heartening, that the PM at least 'hung his head in> >> >shame' and apologized for the attrocities, even though he was far> >> >removed from the scene. At least it gives some closure to people who> >> >lost their loved ones.> >> >> >> >Unscrupulous polititcians are at the core of the violence. Immediately> >> >after the Indira Gandhi assination, it were people like Tytler who> >> >instigated the masses to attack Sikhs. Similarly, is the case when> >> >Muslims are attacked.> >> >> >> >The article below does seem to ! lay the blame> >> >entirely on the majority (Hindus).> >> >Not that one can condone any of the attrocities, is there any> >> >culpability of minority groups in these incidents?> >> >> >> >Why would Sikh bodyguards assasinate the PM? I am not sure about> >> >Godhra, but whats bandied about is that muslim groups cast the first> >> >stone by killing the 'Hindu' political workers, and things started> >> >spreading to other areas.> >> >> >> >First hand in the 60s, I have seen Calcutta go up in flames when> >> >Hindu/Muslim mobs killed each other. Do we blame the masses or the> >> >polititcians who started these?> >> >> >> >IMHO, the country is much like a tinder box at times. With huge> >> >uneducated masses are drenched with passions of one kind or another.> >> >All it takes is a cruel polititcian to light it up.> >> >> >> >We have seen these types of incidents in Assam too, during the> >> >Assamese/Bengali conflicts or Nelli. I was very young at that time,> ! >> >and know now how and why the conflict started, but do vividly remember> >> >> >a GU Prof (Gupta, a quiet Bengali gentleman) was stabbed just a couple> >> >> >of homes away from us - we could hear the wife and son crying for> >> >> >help, but no one had the courage to go out and help (even the next> >> >> >door neighbor).> >> >> >> >Were those culprits ever brought to justice? >> Absolutely not, and given> >> >the political climate it would have been >> imprudent for anyone to get> >> >arrested - the incident was just brushed >> under the carpet.> >> >> >> >I have also heard of similar incidents in >> Silchar, where Assamese were> >> >singled out to be murdered.> >> >> >> >> >So, in the end, whether we like it or not, it seems that crimes> > > >> >committed during riots are 'not crimes'. A few days ago, I think you> >> >> >asked a question: If India was a violent country?> >> >> >> >The answer >> is a resounding yes. The only thing, one can say is that> >> >given the >> diversity of language! , religion, caste, creed, states all> >> >living in one place as a country, its a miracle these conflicts are> >> >not as frequent as they used to be.> >> >> >> >Maybe, people are at last learning to live in harmony and tolerance.> >> >> >> >--Ram> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >On 8/11/05, Chan Mahanta <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> >> >> CARNAGE 84> >> >>> >> >> We, the bloody people> >> >>> >> >> By Sankarshan Thakur> >> >> IN AN UNREQUITED LAND:> >> >> A child from one of> >> >> Trilokpuri's ravaged families> >> >> Photographed by Gauri Gill> >> >>> >> >> We are the apparatchik of serial and periodic> >> >> political madness, we are the midwives of the> >> >> abortion of the senses> >> >> For a talkative society, we tell very little of> >> >> the essence of ourselves. We babble in the> >> >> subconscious hope it will drown our truths. We've> >> >> erected opaque mental monuments to Buddha and> >> >> Gandhi to blind our eager resort t! o bloodletting.> >> >> When the glare catches us red-handed, we wipe our> >> >> sins on others and melt into our vast convenience> >> > > of numbers. Narendra Modi. Pravin Togadia. Lal> >> > > Krishna Advani. Jagdish Tytler. Sajjan Kumar. HKL> >> > > Bhagat. Bal Thackeray. Hiteswar Saikia. Bhagwat> >> >> Jha Azad. Remember him? Bhagwat Jha Azad of> >> >> Bihar? Remember Bhagalpur of 1989? Remember a> >> >> village called Chanderi and another called Logain?> >> >>> >> >> ....It was eventually left to the vultures to> >> >> rip the cover. The bodies, 116 of them, had lain> >> >> there decomposing for six weeks. In that period> >> >> the village had grown wiser to the fineries of> >> >> tilling - dead men made good compost. A lush> >> >> winter crop of mustard had sprung on the bed of> >> >> corpses they had laid. But the village was also> > > >> to grow wiser to a thing or two about old idioms:> >> >> Dead men do tell tales, it is seldom the! y don't.> >> >>> >> >> The stench had risen high off the field and the> >> >> vultures had begun to swoop low. The killing had> >> >> been consummated weeks ago, an entire settlement> >> >> of Muslims on the edge of Logain. Their common> >> >> guilt the villagers had consigned to a common> >> >> grave. The carnage was an open secret in the> >> >> village but to the world beyond it was just a> >> >> secret. Until the vultures arrived, followed by> >> >> that rare thing called a policeman with a> >> >> conscience. He had the crop shaved and the field> >> >> dug up. The skulls flew into the sky as the> >> >> spades got to workS.> >> >>> >> >> Some among us were there and told the story.> >> >> Logain became, like many of our stories, the> >> >> child of memory's whore - an unwanted, forgotten> >> >> consequence of collective shame. We are a nation> >> >> eddying with bastard deeds. Nellie. Moradabad.> >> >> Bhiwandi. Hashimpura. Maliana. ! Meerut. Kanpur.> >> >> Bhagalpur. Sopore. Baroda. Aligarh. Mumbai.> >> >> Chittisingpora. Ahmedabad. Delhi. We lay> >> >> blood-litter on the streets and retreat into our> >> >> homes. Nobody owns up. We decamp from facts and> >> >> populate our horrors with clich�d characters of> >> >> fiction - a violent mob, a murderous horde, a> >> >> crowd screaming, slashing, burning, a mass that> >> >> suddenly descended and vanished.> >> >>> >> >> Who? Wherefrom? Us. Herefrom. Every single time.> >> >> It is we who pillage, rape and murder. Under> >> >> wrongful excitement and exhortation. Under> >> >> criminal instruction and protection. Under the> >> >> Modis and Togadias and Tytlers, yes. They are the> >> >> leaders but we are there to be led. We are the> >> >> apparatchik of serial and periodic political> >> >> madness, we are the midwives of the abortion of> >> >> the senses. Then we wash our hands and line up> >> >> for secular prabhat ph! eris, our opaque monuments> >> >> to Buddha and Gandhi urgently recalled to veil> >> >> memory and guilt.> >> >>> >> >> The Babel Tower of inquiries and commissions,> >> >> reports and recommendations that we have piled> > > >> for ourselves is a route of escape. The tabling> >> >> of Nanavati conclusions has become the hour of> >> >> more deflective clamour, a booster dose of> >> >> obfuscation. A talkative society talking> >> >> endlessly. Or an argumentative society, as we are> >> >> told on formidable authority, arguing on. About> >> >> who and how. About cause and consequence. About> >> >> crime and the absence of punishment. Never once> >> >> do we dare look ourselves in the mirror. Never do> >> >> we stop pointing fingers at others. Outraged,> >> >> shrieking justice, baying retribution, if legal.> >> >> Hush. Where were you at the time? And what were> >> > > you doing? You were electing Narendra Modi> >> >> astride a bloodied rat! h. You were voting Sajjan> >> >> Kumar and Jagdish Tytler back to respectable> >> >> titles and hallowed portals. You were turning up> >> >> in thousands to pirouette to the twisted bigotry> >> >> of Pravin Togadia. You were letting Thackeray> >> >> hone your hatreds.> >> >>> >> >> We need to ask few questions of each other. We> >> >> need to ask questions of the households that were> >> >> spared the mayhem of Trilokpuri. Ask the> >> >> shopkeepers of Mandvi Ni Pole. Ask around in the> >> >> bylanes of Hashimpura. Ask those who live across> >> >> the charred remains of Gulberg. Ask the villagers> >> >> of Logain, it's been 16 winters since that> >> >> resplendent mustard crop that contained a gene of> >> >> murdered blood. We cannot pretend being a civil> >> >> society when we claim, every now and again,> >> >> rights over uncivil liberties. We cannot invoke> >> >> laws that we ourselves violate. We cannot look up> >> > > to a Constitut! ion that we trample underfoot.> >> >>> >> >> There are a myriad contemporary Indian stories> >> >> we have forgotten. They are all true stories.> >> >> They have dates and datelines. They have pegs and> >> >> dead people hanging by them. And there are, among> >> >> us, the many hands that hung them there that have> > > >> since been washed in collective and convenient> >> >> forgetting. The truth about mass murder in this> >> >> country we haven't learnt to tell. Even less to> >> >> confront. Which is why someday, when that> >> >> diabolical sloganeer appears again with a manic> >> >> prescription and a surcharged bloodcry, we will> >> >> again turn upon each other and consume.> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> Aug 20 , 2005> >> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________> >> >> Assam mailing list> >> >> Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu> >> >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam> >> >>> >> >> Mailing list FAQ:> ! >> >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html> >> >> To unsubscribe >> or change options:> >> >> http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam> >> >> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ Assam mailing list Assam@pikespeak.uccs.edu http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/listinfo/assam Mailing list FAQ: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/assam/assam-faq.html To unsubscribe or change options: http://pikespeak.uccs.edu/mailman/options/assam
