jkeny wrote: > Archi, let me lay out some issues that I would like to discuss so that I > can be assured that I'm not being taken for a ride & that there is an > honest attempt at establishing the Regen audibly improves the sound when > used in front of a USB DAC of reasonable quality: > > These points are also addressed to the wider forum readers other than > Archi > > - Archimago & friends listening impressions will not be dismissed out of > hand. > > - He can do blind tests if he wants to but unless a definite audible > difference in a short segment of selected music is identified sighted & > can be consistently identified multiple times, then there is no hope of > a blind test giving a positive result. Some personal honesty is required > here, much like the honesty of the blind test descriptions given earlier > in this thread by 'Darrenyeats ' > (http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?103842-Is-anybody-sick-of-the-recent-spate-of-threads&p=823824&viewfull=1#post823824)& > 'some links' > (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/850044-foobar-2000-abx-test-redbook-vs-192-24-a.html) > I gave to similar descriptions of how to do blind tests. Keeping focus > is a very important part of doing a successful blind test & identifying > when this focus is lost requires personal honesty & a certain > self-awareness. So unless these guidelines are scrupulously followed > then I consider the blind test flawed & it doesn't trump sighted > listening > > - measurements also don't trump listening results. So when no > differences or differences considered below currently accepted > thresholds, are found - don't argue that these "prove" nothing is > audible - please - you simply don't know what & how to measure what is > being heard. > > If we can agree these points, I'm happy to go ahead.
First, I think this is a reasonable forum for doing this... We are unmoderated so unless things really get out of hand, I doubt anybody will come in here and impose strict authority, censorship, or banning. Secondly, we're relatively "neutral ground" - I don't think Logitech cares, there's no financial sponsorship, ads, etc. Third, there are no forum rules banning this kind of discussion, testing, arguments, debates. I have had unpleasant experiences on Hydrogen Audio despite my objective leanings, likewise, I find places like AudioAsylum too much of an 'asylum' with poor SNR. What's Best Forum, Pink Fish might be options but I have not been there enough. I know some readers here visit these other forums so they can of course invite folks here easily! About myself. Remember that at one time I was a card carrying "audiophile". In my college days (15-20 years ago) I didn't have enough money to buy fancy stuff so created my own magnet-wire cables, Cat5 twisted speaker wires, solid silver interconnects. Have tried my hand at green pens, freezing CD's, Belt Rainbow Foils, DeOxIt everything, footers of various materials, demagnetizing and burn-in CD's. Although I am much more objective-leaning these days, I do bill my blog as "more objective" and will talk about subjective impressions including as you will see this most recent Digital Filter Test just released on Friday. I do try my best to be honest and thus far, measurements do correlate with my own experience... I never thought FLAC sounded better than WAV, or bitperfect software sounded different, or that Mac sounded better than Windows when set up properly over the years of experience even before objectively testing any of this stuff in the last 3 years and starting my blog. I will try my best with the Regen and with my friends. For full disclosure, remember that I do not operate my blog in a vacuum. I've had wonderful chats with folks here on the forum both publicly and through PM. Over the years, I've had E-mails from readers and have developed friendships with some; "pen pals" from around the world. Also, I have made connections with folks who if I listed names you would recognize as being respected members in hardware design, recording & engineering, and audio software development world. These people have contributed to ideas and design of some of the tests I have tried... They generally are not credited as requested because what I do as a hobbyist is apart from the professional world they have their namesake in, or level of academic rigour they operate in - obviously there's no need to associate any company entity with this. I do this for fun and have no financial interest in my testing or blog (other than a small amount of 'music purchase money' from the Amazon ads). I will make sure to ask them their thoughts and suggestions if any when I have the Regen to try. Here's what I will try to set-up with friends. I likely have to do this on two separate days. The 2 friends I'm thinking about are clearly more "subjective leaning" than me even though one has sold off some expensive cables after some listening tests. One is in the early 40's and the other guy in early 50's (I think!). Both at least in the hobby for >20 years each; fancy cables, numerous speakers over the lifetime, more DACs tried than I have fingers. They know about my blog but as far as I am aware, not regular visitors. The procedure has to be reasonable and commensurate with what makes a difference for a home user, so I don't think it would be fair to expect onerous blind testing! A suggested procedure: 1. -Before the Regen arrives, I will make sure the friends are "game" and hopefully not away for the summer.- I will ask them for at least 5 songs they feel they know "very well" - I suspect they can both agree on a set and have them start listening to these 5 songs to maintain familiarity (I might even send them the FLACs). I might have to veto something if it's clearly inappropriate (I think Iggy & The Stooges "Raw Power" should be disqualified). Also, if I have a better pressing like an MFSL/Audio Fidelity or "un-remastered" (they better not use the UMG remastered Rolling Stones for example!) version with better quality and dynamic range, I will offer them that. 2. -Test day:- - Start with *at least 15 minutes of sighted listening with 2 of the songs selected*, flipping back and forth a few times. Encouraged to write notes, pick out segments they think are particularly revealing or special qualities heard in one and not the other. I will make notes as to the segment start and stop times so we don't need to listen to the whole song if they identify shorter segments. - Have them write a brief synopsis of overall impression between Regen vs. direct. Clarity, timing, frequency response differences, precision of attacks, soundstage/imaging... - *Start the blind phase I:* I will be the "switch monkey" since timing is everything! And this will ensure efficiency and I can keep my own notes. I will pre-determine how I switch so I will not idiosyncratically change the order during the test. They can keep their own records and I'll discourage chatting between switches so no notes shared; they can make independent decisions. Maybe I'll do 5 switches for each song so there will be a total of 10 attempts at identification. - Break! Short break, have a nice non-alcoholic beverage, use bathroom, etc... Maybe talk a little about the differences but not share the results written... - *Do another 15-minutes of sighted listening for another 2 songs* but SWITCH THE GUY IN THE SWEET SPOT. - *Start blind phase II:* Again, another 5 switches per song randomly (known to me) for another 10 attempts at identification. - If there's time, maybe we can do the last song of 5 selected... - We go for a nice meal, have some alcoholic beverages :-) 3. -Data analysis:- - Should be obvious... 5 x 4 songs x 2 people. 40 total attempts. Might even have time for the last track putting this up to 50 results. Did one guy do better than the other? Was the one on the sweet spot more accurate? - Any evidence of significance in identifying playback with the Regen in place? - Get some subjective impressions as to -how difficult- they thought the blind task was... - Subjective impressions - in what ways did (or did not) the Regen improved sound quality based on sighted evaluation? So... Does that sound like a plan? Happy to refine within reason of course... I don't want to lose friends over an onerous procedure :-). I will do my usual objective tests and anything else I can within my abilities. Archimago's Musings: (archimago.blogspot.com) A 'more objective' audiophile blog. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Archimago's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2207 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=103842 _______________________________________________ audiophiles mailing list [email protected] http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
