i put my hand up to take this to the exec. who else (must be GFA member) i can 
count on for support?

step 1: anyone cleared to fly a Self Launcher automatically has L2 OPS 
annotated on GPC (will that work?) 









> On 5 Feb 2017, at 4:10 pm, James McDowall <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> Elsewhere in this discussion it was noted that the majority of GFA new 
> registrations last year were powered. The interests of these people need to 
> be accommodated NOW, not when the powerless gliders can't be launched because 
> it is too expensive or I just cant move my zimmer frame fast enough to run a 
> wing. This will encourage investment. Also GFA needs to develop a system of 
> permitting retrofits of power systems (by using the experimental certificates 
> provisions) to add value to un-powered gliders. Cutting loose independent 
> operators (from clubs) will remove the liability that CFI's and RTO's fear. 
> That is operators hold a GPL or GPC issued by GFA and simply agree to fly 
> according to the operational arrangements approved by CASA under CAO 95.4.
> I am reminded of a couple of quotes attributed to Edmund Burke:
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do 
> nothing." and "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good 
> conscience to remain silent."
> but most all a common saying:
> “Some people make things happen. Some people watch things happen. And then 
> there are those who wonder, 'What the hell just happened?”
> 
> I think most of the gliding fraternity will wake up one day and "what the 
> hell happened"?
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Richard Frawley <[email protected] 
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> It is well know that the biggest resistance by far to the current GPC change 
> (which was a good step forward) was by instructors and especially CFI’S and 
> RTO’s
> 
> I would be more than happy to help champion the issuance of GPC as equivalent 
> to Level 2 Independent ops, but I can tell you now it will the CFI’s and 
> Panels that will resist the most
> 
> Given however the small number of self launchers, this requirements is still 
> moot.
> 
> As long as you still need others (tugs, wing runners, ropes) there is no true 
> independence and their in lies the root cause.
> 
> Bring on the world of electric self launchers and true independence, the 
> sooner the better and even then it only really comes if its private owner or 
> small syndicate.
> 
> Club aircraft will always be over protected. This is the nature of a shared 
> asset. Shared asserts by human nature are never as well looked after as those 
> owned. (rental cars + public transport vs the private car)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 5 Feb 2017, at 2:28 pm, Future Aviation Pty. Ltd. <[email protected] 
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi James, hello all
>> 
>> I have argued along exactly the same lines when I was on the panel as the 
>> head coach for SA.
>> 
>> Coming from a different country I was bewildered that there is no formal 
>> qualification for glider pilots in Australia. I argued 
>> for a Glider Pilot Licence (GPL) instead of a Glider Pilot Certificate (GPC) 
>> but I was told that only CASA has the authority 
>> to issue licences. The GFA wanted to retain control and for mainly this 
>> reason we are now stuck with a certificate rather 
>> than a licence. A certificate is (almost) worthless but a licence implies 
>> that you can operate free of interference by others.
>> 
>> For years (or should I say decades) I have argued that the current system is 
>> no longer appropriate and need urgent fixing. 
>> Please let me commend Mark Newton for articulating this major problem 
>> accurately and publicly. He has expressed what 
>> many disgruntled glider pilots have long complained about privately and what 
>> has caused a lot of bad publicity for gliding
>> over the years. I know that it has prevented many other potential aviators 
>> to join. This will continue until suitably qualified 
>> pilots can freely operate outside of the supervision of instructors who in 
>> many cases have much less knowledge, less 
>> know-how, less experience and far less competence than the pilot(s) involved.
>> 
>> I hasten to add that I have not experienced an abuse of power by instructors 
>> panels or CFIs but I’m aware of the fact that 
>> this has occurred in other parts of the country. In too many cases the 
>> affected individuals have left the sport or switched to 
>> power flying where they were treated with the respect they deserve. Let’s 
>> not forget that the power jockey's gain came at 
>> our expense! Their member base is still increasing while our numbers are 
>> largely on the decline.
>> 
>> I can’t help but feel that we have lived with the current system for such a 
>> long time that many of us are unwilling to even 
>> contemplate a system that makes for truly independent pilots. In the medium 
>> term it will undoubtedly be another nail in the
>> gliding coffin down under.
>> 
>> However, gliding is not yet in the coffin, and we should not lose hope 
>> altogether. Some of you might recall my series of articles 
>> with the title “Time for a change?”. These articles were published in 
>> 'Gliding Australia’ and proved to be the trigger for the GFA 
>> to implement the GPC. However, to my way of thinking this should have only 
>> been the first step. The logical next step would 
>> be to bring our system in line with best overseas practices. Unfortunately 
>> it won’t happen if we don’t get organised and if we 
>> don’t drive the necessary changes at grass root level. Only when we push 
>> very hard and collectively will we stand a chance 
>> to convince the GFA to act and that is time to act NOW.
>> 
>> Kind regards to all
>> 
>> Bernard 
>> 
>> PS: On request I will make my articles “Time for a change?” available to 
>> members of this great forum. I just love it!!!!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 5 Feb 2017, at 9:13 am, James McDowall <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> CFI's (Cheif Flying Instructors) responsibility should end when you get a 
>>> GPC (which really should be a GPL valid in Australia).
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 8:27 AM, Richard Frawley <[email protected] 
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> Yes, the GFA has operational responsibility as that is what is imparted and 
>>> set up to do, but the key and central relationship still remains between 
>>> CASA and the Pilot. If you breach airspace are they going to chase the GFA?
>>> 
>>> If anyone thinks that you can get a better deal from CASA in terms of the 
>>> required process and structure, then you are most welcome to get on the GFA 
>>> exec and give it a go.
>>> 
>>> Given what CASA demanded in order that the community keep what freedom we 
>>> have (ie not go to a GA style process), no one will will argue that what we 
>>> have is not a compromise, but I can tell you that without the 2+ years lot 
>>> of effort went into the last major round with CASA we would be a lot worse 
>>> off.
>>> 
>>> If you think that anyone in the last few series of GFA exec teams wanted to 
>>> keep any of the current structure for their own personal empowerment, how 
>>> wrong you are. It simply means you have not met or known the people 
>>> involved nor being involved the activities that were required.
>>> 
>>> The only abuse of ‘power’ I have personally observed has been at the CFI 
>>> and associated Instructor Panel level. Unfortunately, in the current 
>>> structure they are not actually accountable to anyone and can put rules and 
>>> process in place as they wish. In this sadly, I have seen some club members 
>>> treated quite badly and without justification.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 5 Feb 2017, at 7:28 am, James McDowall <[email protected] 
>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Nonsense, as the document says the parties to the agreement are the GFA 
>>>> and CASA. Sure, I agree to the rules of the association which may include 
>>>> the Operational regulations referred to in CAO 95.4 (which are different 
>>>> to GFA's Operational regulations) but members are not party to the 
>>>> agreement entered into by the incorporated separate legal entity that is 
>>>> the GFA.
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Feb 4, 2017 at 10:44 PM, Richard Frawley <[email protected] 
>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Did you know that the Deed with Casa is between the glider pilot and CASA
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 4 Feb 2017, at 11:06 pm, Mark Newton <[email protected] 
>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 4 Feb 2017, at 5:55 PM, Greg Wilson <[email protected] 
>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> One low cost step toward improving the gliding "product" would be to 
>>>>>> make GPC holders responsible for their own flying instead of relying on 
>>>>>> a L2 instructor's presence at launch.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I can understand how the current system evolved from clubs wanting to 
>>>>>> control pilots in their aircraft but surely it's time for this outdated 
>>>>>> system to be relinquished.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It didn't evolve from clubs wanting to control pilots in their aircraft. 
>>>>> It evolved from GFA wanting to control club operations.
>>>>> 
>>>>> GFA implements a chain of command: 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pilot -> Duty Instructor -> CFI -> RTO -> CTO -> (CASA, but we're not 
>>>>> meant to believe that)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Each link in the chain is, as previously observed, equivalent to a 
>>>>> "rank." Authority flows downwards, with each layer following the command 
>>>>> of the layer above. Responsibility flows upwards: The duty instructor is 
>>>>> "responsible" for the operation (how? never really defined). The CFI is 
>>>>> "responsible" for the panel. And so on. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sitting at the middle of everything is GFA, HQ, setting policy centrally, 
>>>>> implemented by the chain of command.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It's all right there in the MOSP ("standing orders.")
>>>>> 
>>>>> I speculated earlier that it happened like this in the 1950s because so 
>>>>> many of the early GFA people had military aviation involvement, so 
>>>>> setting up a command hierarchy would've been a natural way to approach 
>>>>> civilian aviation. Society was a lot more hierarchical then too.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It isn't anymore.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Enough discussion here may even start movement in that direction from 
>>>>>> GFA. What do you think?
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Can't be here. GFA started their own website forums for members 
>>>>> specifically so they wouldn't need to listen to this one.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Members need to get upset about this. Get organised.
>>>>> 
>>>>>      - mark
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
>>>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
>>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
>>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
>>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
>> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring 
> <http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring

_______________________________________________
Aus-soaring mailing list
[email protected]
http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring

Reply via email to