Couldnt agree more. Nice to see some input from the recreational side of gliding (not soaring) which is often overlooked nby this forum. Im in the same boat with 4 airworthy vintage gliders (and 2 being rebuilt) that all have weight issues (im a healthy? 100kgs) and would effectively be grounded by the extra gear and expense involved with ADSB. I also mostly operate in the circuit area with some aircraft and have resisted installing Flarm to date. Not to say i havent used it in both gliders and tug and appreciate it use as an AID ONLY particulary at comps. I still believe more study/ discussion on making our aircraft more visible with colour ,relective tape or whatever and getting our eyes out of the cockpit more. Raised it once before in this forum but little interest. If we follow this current train of thought we will be installing strobes and nav lights next and possibly submitting flight plans in the distant future. Are there any stasticics around to support why we require this and number of near hits/ incidents/accidents between sport/recreational/gliding/commercial aviation. Instead of discussing how to mount this gear and current draw/battery options etc i feel we should be resisting this move and discussing how to manage our risks better before we are forced by others to do it or more. Nice restoration on the Hutter, can you contact me offline at [email protected] at your liesure . cheers laurie
> From: [email protected] > Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 51 > To: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 08:26:28 +1030 > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Horse Drawn Zeppelins and ADSB: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, > Issue 47 ([email protected]) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 08:26:27 +1030 > From: [email protected] > Subject: [Aus-soaring] Horse Drawn Zeppelins and ADSB: Aus-soaring > Digest, Vol 86, Issue 47 > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > And although it is a bit tangential to your original question > Nelson, some of us also like to potter around with equivalent horse > drawn zeppelins, see here: > > http://toohardtodo.blogspot.com/ [1] > > I will have all those troubles the hang glider people etc have. > Mandating a system which potentially costs more than the aircraft is > worth, fitting any electrical system (at all!) is problematical to the > weight and how/where to fit becomes interesting too (my instrument > panel comes away from the aircraft as part of the horse collar) . > > Weight is a big problem, more than some expect. As it is I am > refabricing as part of the 20 yearly (it did need it) and trying to > scrape off grams in weight because it does make a big difference to > this old girl (100kg empty and 185kgs MAUW). Maybe it would be easier > to take the weight off myself! > > All for an aircraft which will be flown a few times a year and most > likely away from population centres at a regatta of similar aircraft. > > Regards > > SWK > > On Sat 27/11/10 5:11 PM , Nelson Handcock [email protected] > sent: > Thanks - I read this through a few days ago and gather this document > focusses on the cost not justifying the relatively low incident rate. > However, (as some have pointed out on this forum) the more situational > awareness that can be acheived the better, so it appears there is some > support for the instrument. I note some discussion taking place about > how to fit the instrument display in a small panel and the > impracticalities facing balloon, HG MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; > BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid">Send Aus-soaring mailing list > submissions to > [email protected] [3] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring [4] > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] [5] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] [6] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 42 (John Welsh) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 14:30:10 +0800 > From: "John Welsh" > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 42 > To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi Nelson, > > Suggest you read this in detail: > > http://2009.gfa.org.au/Docs/CASA/ASAC_DP1001AS_Response.pdf [9] > > Cheers, > > John Welsh > > From: [email protected] [10] > [mailto:[email protected] [11]] On Behalf Of > Nelson > Handcock > Sent: Saturday, 27 November 2010 2:10 PM > To: [email protected] [12] > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 42 > > Excuse what might appear a dumb question, but apart from the cost of > installing charset="us-ascii" > > PowerFLARM doesn't appear to provide ADSB Out only ADSB In. > > From: [email protected] [20] > [mailto:[email protected] [21]] On Behalf Of > Simon > Hackett > Sent: Friday, 26 November 2010 4:02 PM > To: Mal Bruce; AUS Soaring > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ADSB in gliders and sport aviation > > Hello Mal (et al), > > That device already exists. Its called a "PowerFLARM": > > http://www.butterfly.aero/powerflarm/fly/ [22] > > and/or > > http://www.lxavionics.co.uk/traffic-monitor.htm [23] > > This looks like its just about to go into full production. > > Note that its quoted as being able to run for 8 hours on six AA > batteries > (or from a glider battery, obviously, as an alternative). > > i.e. presumably the current draw isn't unreasonable. > > That doesn't magically solve the economic question, but it does > suggest that > the actual technology you require here (along with a Mode-S > transponder, I > guess) is certainly available (or nearly so). > > I must say that I find the notion of a combination Flarm and ADS-B to > be > highly appealing as a safety tool. Its eye-opening (literally) to see > the > thing the ADS-B in my Cirrus picks up before I see them out of the > window. > > Regards, > > Simon > > On 26/11/2010, at 6:00 PM, Mal Bruce wrote: > > Could flarm and ADSB run on a single unit I recall having discussion > with > Nigel about this how about your expert opinion? > > Personally I 100% support technology being used for collision > avoidance the > cost of the units and current battery technology is minimal and the > shared > cost per aircraft far out weighs the cost of one life. > > I am sure that negotiated properly some costs could be shared by GFA > and the > federal government CASA after all they want "safe sky's for all"! > > Mal > > CASA Discussion Paper Response - Urgent Action Required > > To: GFA Members, Gliding Clubs and Regional Gliding Associations > > Urgent Action Required > > See the response by > ASAC to CASA relating to > Discussion Paper 1006AS In a nutshell, it proposes to > mandate universal fitting of ADSB and Mode S to all aircraft for use > in all > classifications of airspace. This is completely unacceptable to sport > aviation generally and gliding particularly. > > The GFA will be submitting a response which will express similar > views to > those of ASAC. > > It is important that as many responses as possible are submitted > expressing > concerns about the proposal and at the very least expressing strong > support > for the ASAC submission. > > Submissions can be made easily by individuals and club > representatives via > CASA website " > Response to Regulatory Change Proposal". > > Detailed individual responses would be preferred but a response which > just > expresses dissatisfaction with CASA's consultation and then notes for > each > item that changes would make it acceptable, with a final comment > supporting > the ASAC paper will at least get the message across. > > It would greatly assist our position if each organisation can ensure > a > response on their behalf before 30 November and encourage all > individual > members to do the same. Apologies for the short notice. > > Phil McCann > > President > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com [27] > Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3278 - Release Date: > 11/25/10 > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 20:16:23 +1100 > From: Mark Fisher > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ADSB in gliders and sport aviation > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Guys, > Swift Avionics will be the Australian agent for PowerFlarm. > Will advertise when it's ready to sell. > Cheers > Mark > > On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 8:02 PM, John Welsh wrote: > > > PowerFLARM doesn?t appear to provide ADSB Out only ADSB In. > > > > > > > > *From:* [email protected] [32] [mailto: > > [email protected] [33]] *On Behalf Of > *Simon Hackett > > *Sent:* Friday, 26 November 2010 4:02 PM > > *To:* Mal Bruce; AUS Soaring > > *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] ADSB in gliders and sport aviation > > > > > > > > Hello Mal (et al), > > > > > > > > That device already exists. Its called a "PowerFLARM": > > > > > > > > http://www.butterfly.aero/powerflarm/fly/ [34] > > > > > > > > and/or > > > > > > > > http://www.lxavionics.co.uk/traffic-monitor.htm [35] > > > > > > > > This looks like its just about to go into full production. > > > > > > > > Note that its quoted as being able to run for 8 hours on six AA > batteries > > (or from a glider battery, obviously, as an alternative). > > > > > > > > i.e. presumably the current draw isn't unreasonable. > > > > > > > > That doesn't magically solve the economic question, but it does > suggest > > that the actual technology you require here (along with a Mode-S > > transponder, I guess) is certainly available (or nearly so). > > > > > > > > I must say that I find the notion of a combination Flarm and ADS-B > to be > > highly appealing as a safety tool. Its eye-opening (literally) to > see the > > thing the ADS-B in my Cirrus picks up before I see them out of the > window. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Simon > > > > > > > > On 26/11/2010, at 6:00 PM, Mal Bruce wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Could flarm and ADSB run on a single unit I recall having > discussion with > > Nigel about this how about your expert opinion? > > > > > > > > Personally I 100% support technology being used for collision > avoidance > the > > cost of the units and current battery technology is minimal and the > shared > > cost per aircraft far out weighs the cost of one life. > > > > > > > > I am sure that negotiated properly some costs could be shared by > GFA and > > the federal government CASA after all they want ?safe sky?s for > all?! > > > > > > > > Mal > > > > > > > > > > > > *CASA Discussion Paper Response - Urgent Action Required* > > > > > > > > To: GFA Members, Gliding Clubs and Regional Gliding Associations > > > > > > > > *Urgent Action Required* > > > > > > > > See the response by *ASAC to > CASA*relating to > > *Discussion Paper > 1006AS* > > * * In a nutshell, it proposes to mandate universal fitting of ADSB > and > > Mode S to all aircraft for use in all classifications of airspace. > This > is > > completely unacceptable to sport aviation generally and gliding > > particularly. > > > > > > > > The GFA will be submitting a response which will express similar > views to > > those of ASAC. > > > > > > > > It is important that as many responses as possible are submitted > expressing > > concerns about the proposal and at the very least expressing strong > support > > for the ASAC submission. > > > > > > > > Submissions can be made easily by individuals and club > representatives via > > CASA website *"**Response to Regulatory Change > Proposal* > > *"*. > > > > Detailed individual responses would be preferred but a response > which just > > expresses dissatisfaction with CASA's consultation and then notes > for each > > item that changes would make it acceptable, with a final comment > supporting > > the ASAC paper will at least get the message across. > > > > > > > > It would greatly assist our position if each organisation can > ensure a > > response on their behalf before 30 November and encourage all > individual > > members to do the same. Apologies for the short notice. > > > > > > > > Phil McCann > > > > President > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > No virus found in this message. > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com [36] > > Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3278 - Release Date: > 11/25/10 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Aus-soaring mailing list > > [email protected] [37] > > To check or change subscription details, visit: > > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring [38] > > > > -- > Mark Fisher > Managing Director > Swift Performance Equipment > PO Box 726, Lismore, NSW > Australia > Ph: +61 2 66221666 > Fax: +61 2 66221633 > www.spe.com.au [39] > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] [40] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring [41] > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 42 > ******************************************* > > -- > Nelson Handcock > 0409 149919 > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia [42] > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com [43] > Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3282 - Release Date: > 11/26/10 > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] [45] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring [46] > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 47 > ******************************************* > > -- > Nelson Handcock > 0409 149919 > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia [47] > > > Links: > ------ > [1] http://toohardtodo.blogspot.com/ > [2] mailto:[email protected] > [3] mailto:[email protected] > [4] http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > [5] mailto:[email protected] > [6] mailto:[email protected] > [7] mailto:[email protected] > [8] mailto:[email protected] > [9] http://2009.gfa.org.au/Docs/CASA/ASAC_DP1001AS_Response.pdf > [10] mailto:[email protected] > [11] mailto:[email protected] > [12] mailto:[email protected] > [13] mailto:[email protected] > [14] mailto:[email protected] > [15] http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > [16] mailto:[email protected] > [17] mailto:[email protected] > [18] mailto:[email protected] > [19] mailto:[email protected] > [20] mailto:[email protected] > [21] mailto:[email protected] > [22] http://www.butterfly.aero/powerflarm/fly/ > [23] http://www.lxavionics.co.uk/traffic-monitor.htm > [24] > http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT > [25] > http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT > [26] > http://GFA.informz.net/z/cjUucD9taT0yOTU5MTQmcD0xJnU9NTAxNzk0NzQ5JmxpPTEzNT > [27] http://www.avg.com > [28] mailto:[email protected] > [29] mailto:[email protected] > [30] mailto:[email protected] > [31] mailto:[email protected] > [32] mailto:[email protected] > [33] mailto:[email protected] > [34] http://www.butterfly.aero/powerflarm/fly/ > [35] http://www.lxavionics.co.uk/traffic-monitor.htm > [36] http://www.avg.com > [37] mailto:[email protected] > [38] http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > [39] http://www.spe.com.au > [40] mailto:[email protected] > [41] http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > [42] http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia > [43] http://www.avg.com > [44] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20101127/43ef0e6b/attachment.html > > [45] mailto:[email protected] > [46] http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > [47] http://www.linkedin.com/in/nelsonhandcockaustralia > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20101128/583cab9b/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 86, Issue 51 > *******************************************
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