...might be another feather in the bow of those supporting the mandatory use of Transponders - the comp organisers would be able to track all gliders around each turn point.....
On Thu, Jan 20, 2011 at 2:44 PM, <[email protected] > wrote: > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Forgery and sabotage (Mark Newton) > 2. Re: Forgery and sabotage (Mike Borgelt) > 3. Re: Forgery and sabotage (Tim Shirley) > 4. Re: Forgery and sabotage (Mark Newton) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 12:59:30 +1030 > From: Mark Newton <[email protected]> > Subject: [Aus-soaring] Forgery and sabotage > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Amazing the kind of stuff that's available off-the-shelf these days. > > I reckon if you put one of these and a IGC-approved logger into a > barometric chamber, you can create the world record datalogger trace > of your choice: > http://labsat.co.uk/ > > The labsat unit takes a GPS or GNSS datafile and plays it back as RF, > so a nearby GPS device will actually believe that it has followed the > course described by the trace. With a barometric chamber you get the > pressure altitude axis as well. The result will be a datafile you > can extract from your IGC-approved logger which says pretty much > whatever you want it to say. > > It costs about UKP7000, so you might want to buy into one in a > syndicate with other like-minded cheats. "Tell you what, I'll > claim the distance record, why don't you claim the speed-around- > a-300km-triangle record?" > > Meanwhile, there're also ways of preventing other people from getting > logger traces. For about twenty bucks you can get one of these: > http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.35827 > Couple it with a 12V power source and hide it in the tiedown kit bag > in whichever aircraft is at the top of a competition leaderboard to > produce a "I would have won that comp if it weren't for that goddamn > GPS malfunction!" result. Maybe you're not even competing in the > comp, you just want to stir trouble 'cos you're taking the piss. > > It comes with free delivery :-) > > The equipment required to both forge and sabotage GPS traces is > readily available off-the-shelf at prices that individuals can afford. > > For how long will GPS continue to be trusted for world record and > competition claims? Will we get back to using barographs and cameras? > Are the requirements on official observers good enough to protect against > forgery? > > I love the 21st century :-) > > - mark > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > I tried an internal modem, [email protected] > but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton > ----- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 ------------- Fax: +61-8-82231777 ----- > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:25:37 +1000 > From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Forgery and sabotage > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > Mark, > > That sort of stuff has been available for a long time, just cheaper > and even more ubiquitous now. > > About 12 years ago a guy claimed on r.a.s. that he had done this. He > knew some guys in military electronics in the US. He thought the IGC > security requirements were ludicrous because of this gaping hole in > the security. > > You probably don't need to buy one, just know somebody who works at a > small company that has one and that he can take home on the weekend. > > This was all discussed extensively when the IGC decided to adopt GNSS > loggers and they even made a rule "It is prohibited to feed data into > the device via the antenna". > > Makes all the rest of the security song and dance look pretty silly. > As ever, security comes down to people - in this case the O.O.s. If > the O.O. is present at the beginning and end of flight and scutineers > the glider you'll get reasonable security. The IGC decided they > couldn't trust the O.O. so tried to build the security into the > hardware. Epic fail. > > If you own an IGC flight recorder just think of all the money you > were forced to spend for non existent security. > > Come to think of it, a device like this would be great for AATs. Fly > the task and record the GPS position and move it a little further > each fix until you've flown a greater distance. Feed that through the > device and into the FR in near real time. > > > Mike > > At 12:29 PM 20/01/2011, you wrote: > >Amazing the kind of stuff that's available off-the-shelf these days. > > > >I reckon if you put one of these and a IGC-approved logger into a > >barometric chamber, you can create the world record datalogger trace > >of your choice: > >http://labsat.co.uk/ > > > >The labsat unit takes a GPS or GNSS datafile and plays it back as RF, > >so a nearby GPS device will actually believe that it has followed the > >course described by the trace. With a barometric chamber you get the > >pressure altitude axis as well. The result will be a datafile you > >can extract from your IGC-approved logger which says pretty much > >whatever you want it to say. > > > >It costs about UKP7000, so you might want to buy into one in a > >syndicate with other like-minded cheats. "Tell you what, I'll > >claim the distance record, why don't you claim the speed-around- > >a-300km-triangle record?" > > > >Meanwhile, there're also ways of preventing other people from getting > >logger traces. For about twenty bucks you can get one of these: > >http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.35827 > >Couple it with a 12V power source and hide it in the tiedown kit bag > >in whichever aircraft is at the top of a competition leaderboard to > >produce a "I would have won that comp if it weren't for that goddamn > >GPS malfunction!" result. Maybe you're not even competing in the > >comp, you just want to stir trouble 'cos you're taking the piss. > > > >It comes with free delivery :-) > > > >The equipment required to both forge and sabotage GPS traces is > >readily available off-the-shelf at prices that individuals can afford. > > > >For how long will GPS continue to be trusted for world record and > >competition claims? Will we get back to using barographs and cameras? > >Are the requirements on official observers good enough to protect against > >forgery? > > > >I love the 21st century :-) > > > > - mark > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I tried an internal modem, [email protected] > > but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton > >----- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 ------------- Fax: +61-8-82231777 ----- > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Aus-soaring mailing list > >[email protected] > >To check or change subscription details, visit: > >http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since > 1978 > phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 > fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 > cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 > > email: [email protected] > website: www.borgeltinstruments.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:04:05 +1100 > From: "Tim Shirley" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Forgery and sabotage > To: "'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > As Mike says, the artificial generation of GPS signals has always been > possible, as have several other possible methods of cheating. It?s a bit > of > a yawn, really. > > > > Anyone who wants to come to one of my competitions and try it on is > welcome. > I predict they will be shown the gate in about 2 days, and will never fly a > glider in a competition again. It will be definitely more fun to just fly > the task. > > > > And no (before you ask), I am not going to tell you how I will know. > > > > Cheers > > > > Tim > > > > tra dire e fare c`? mezzo il mare > > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike > Borgelt > Sent: Thursday, 20 January 2011 14:26 > To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Forgery and sabotage > > > > Mark, > > That sort of stuff has been available for a long time, just cheaper > and even more ubiquitous now. > > About 12 years ago a guy claimed on r.a.s. that he had done this. He > knew some guys in military electronics in the US. He thought the IGC > security requirements were ludicrous because of this gaping hole in > the security. > > You probably don't need to buy one, just know somebody who works at a > small company that has one and that he can take home on the weekend. > > This was all discussed extensively when the IGC decided to adopt GNSS > loggers and they even made a rule "It is prohibited to feed data into > the device via the antenna". > > Makes all the rest of the security song and dance look pretty silly. > As ever, security comes down to people - in this case the O.O.s. If > the O.O. is present at the beginning and end of flight and scutineers > the glider you'll get reasonable security. The IGC decided they > couldn't trust the O.O. so tried to build the security into the > hardware. Epic fail. > > If you own an IGC flight recorder just think of all the money you > were forced to spend for non existent security. > > Come to think of it, a device like this would be great for AATs. Fly > the task and record the GPS position and move it a little further > each fix until you've flown a greater distance. Feed that through the > device and into the FR in near real time. > > > Mike > > At 12:29 PM 20/01/2011, you wrote: > >Amazing the kind of stuff that's available off-the-shelf these days. > > > >I reckon if you put one of these and a IGC-approved logger into a > >barometric chamber, you can create the world record datalogger trace > >of your choice: > >http://labsat.co.uk/ > > > >The labsat unit takes a GPS or GNSS datafile and plays it back as RF, > >so a nearby GPS device will actually believe that it has followed the > >course described by the trace. With a barometric chamber you get the > >pressure altitude axis as well. The result will be a datafile you > >can extract from your IGC-approved logger which says pretty much > >whatever you want it to say. > > > >It costs about UKP7000, so you might want to buy into one in a > >syndicate with other like-minded cheats. "Tell you what, I'll > >claim the distance record, why don't you claim the speed-around- > >a-300km-triangle record?" > > > >Meanwhile, there're also ways of preventing other people from getting > >logger traces. For about twenty bucks you can get one of these: > >http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.35827 > >Couple it with a 12V power source and hide it in the tiedown kit bag > >in whichever aircraft is at the top of a competition leaderboard to > >produce a "I would have won that comp if it weren't for that goddamn > >GPS malfunction!" result. Maybe you're not even competing in the > >comp, you just want to stir trouble 'cos you're taking the piss. > > > >It comes with free delivery :-) > > > >The equipment required to both forge and sabotage GPS traces is > >readily available off-the-shelf at prices that individuals can afford. > > > >For how long will GPS continue to be trusted for world record and > >competition claims? Will we get back to using barographs and cameras? > >Are the requirements on official observers good enough to protect against > >forgery? > > > >I love the 21st century :-) > > > > - mark > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- > >I tried an internal modem, [email protected] > > but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton > >----- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 ------------- Fax: +61-8-82231777 ----- > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Aus-soaring mailing list > >[email protected] > >To check or change subscription details, visit: > >http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments since > 1978 > phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 > fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 > cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 > > email: [email protected] > website: www.borgeltinstruments.com > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > _____ > > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3390 - Release Date: 01/19/11 > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20110120/933cf7c0/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 15:14:17 +1030 > From: Mark Newton <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Forgery and sabotage > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > On 20/01/2011, at 1:55 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: > > > That sort of stuff has been available for a long time, just cheaper and > even more ubiquitous now. > > Yeah, that was kinda my point: The cheapness and ubiquity makes a > material difference, given that security is all about the costs of > tradeoffs. > > It's always been /possible/ to gain the FAI OO system, but until > recently it's probably been "cheaper" (dollars, effort) to game it > by non-technological means. > > These days that's probably no longer the case: it's approaching the > time when it's easier and cheaper to cheat with a computer. > > - mark > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > I tried an internal modem, [email protected] > but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton > ----- Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 ------------- Fax: +61-8-82231777 ----- > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 88, Issue 29 > ******************************************* >
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