Tim, I agree with banning teams for Australian comps, but with a small exception:
With the way that out selection works for the Worlds, the "team" is known 18 months before the event. It would be extremely useful for them to practice as a team in real comps. However, it would need to be fair to all - possibly with something like the following: the only "teams" permitted would be those already selected for the worlds and must be declared before the 1st entry close date to enable the practice to be real, they need to be given the same start points they can't be eligible to win the comp their scores are devalued for ranking purposes for the next worlds - I don't know by how much - 5%, 10%, more ???? Not that I can see our comp pilots ever agreeing to this anyway. Off topic, but related to what Tim said, When I was a newcomer to comp flying, the biggest single barrier I had was only flying AAT tasks in club class (where inexperienced pilots are likely to fly). I never flew close to a good pilot and their logger traces bore no resemblance to mine - I had no idea why they flew where they did, and then had no ability to judge decisions made. Even thermal strengths used were not very meaningful - improvement was by luck more than anything. Fortunately the comp rules have been changed to permit speed tasks for club class - I hope they are used ! Fixed tasks take a number of the decisions away, but still leave the important ones - when to start, which energy lines to follow (in a narrow corridor), which thermals to use and for how long - an inexperienced pilot will probably start early and will have better pilots overtake, giving a chance of observing what they do for a reasonable difference. I learnt more from the 1st fixed task I flew than from 3 club class nationals and 2 state comps combined !!! Matt On 08/08/2011, at 9:18 , Tim Shirley wrote: > Two things matter about team flying - results, and perceptions. Results > because that's how you win the silverware, and perceptions because that is > what drives participation. Or not. > > If team flying didn't help, people wouldn't want to do it. If team flying > does help, it is then unfair to those who can't do it or who want to > start off in the sport but don't have a team. > > In what other sport, is it OK to play singles on one side of the net and > doubles on the other, and have the doubles players tell you that it doesn't > really help and they only do it for social reasons? > > Experience for those with long memories, is that rampant team flying is at > least one of the factors that drives newcomers away. That may be from a > perception that the sport is a series of small closed groups that no one is > allowed to join. It you want to see the Nationals fleet dwindle again, > that's one way to do it. > > Cadel Evans didn't win the Tour de France without his team. But notice that > in that sport, everyone is in a team, and the strength of the team > contributes to the strength of the leader, and team members are happy to (or > at least, are paid to) sacrifice their results for the leader and the team. > In gliding, the equivalent would be that certain team members (let's call > them "domestiques") fly off as soon as the gate opens, mark thermals for the > leader, and then just cruise home at the back of the peleton. I was at a > gliding World Comps where that happened - one pilot having lost a realistic > chance of a top result, then actively flew for the success of the other team > member in his class. But in that case it came from an offer by the second > pilot, not a request from the team. > > If the team players really want to do this, I have a suggestion. Fly as a > team, declare your intentions, and have each team member score the LOWEST > score achieved by a member of the team on each day - and at the end of the > comp it is the team not the individual that wins. Would you still want to be > in a team under these rules? Alternatively, have a separate Teams class. > > I think that teams should either be mandatory, or banned. > > Cheers > > Tim > > tra dire e fare c'รจ mezzo il mare > > > On 8/08/2011 1:22, gstev...@bigpond.com wrote: >> >> Hi Tom, >> Good to hear from you. Re your earlier post on Mac and the Diana 2, my >> understanding of this situation is that landing problems are about par for >> the course! Take-offs too in this ship are also supposed to be quite >> interesting, probably for exactly the same reasons you alluded to. I am >> somewhat surprised that the production factory is still going - if indeed it >> still is! Apart from anything else the owner BB seems to have (or had? - >> does the leopard change its spots?), an attitude problem. I have had some >> slight dealings with him in the recent past. My experience was not that his >> attitude was the problem, but the fact that the man would mostly not answer >> any straight question, posed to him. >> Re your response to my latest post - it is an interesting aside. Do you >> really expect these two day winners to be on the podium at the end of the >> contest? What is your real belief re team flying? If you think team flying >> improves the chance of a team member winning, don't be a wooze - answer my >> question. Say hi to Kerrie for me. Have fun. >> Cheers, >> Gary >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: tom claffey >> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. >> Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 12:06 AM >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth? >> >> The two winners at Uvalde yesterday did not team fly! :] >> >> From: "gstev...@bigpond.com" <gstev...@bigpond.com> >> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. >> <aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net> >> Sent: Sunday, 7 August 2011 11:59 PM >> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Team flying - what is it worth? >> >> Hallo All, >> Preamble >> For years, there has been robust debate in this country, on the subject of >> team flying in Australian Competitions. Some pilots are strongly for it, >> some strongly against it, and some are ambivalent. Some pilots have been >> known to change their viewpoint, when their own circumstances change! >> It is generally acknowledged, that in any modern competition, where the >> practice of team flying is allowed, (such as a World Championship), GOOD >> team flying is essential if any team wants to get at least one of their >> members onto the podium. I have used the word "GOOD" quite advisably, >> because, like everything else in gliding, it takes considerable time and >> practice to perfect the necessary skills. >> >> **************************************************************** >> That is of course the rub. How can this practice be carried out? This is not >> the question here, but Allan Barnes, a member of the DDSC has seriously >> considered this particular question and offered some suggestions. In >> passing, I suggest here, that if the team changes, then it is probably >> necessary to return to the basics, at least in the short term, to develop >> the essential trust and rapport that is required in this exercise. I would >> expect that two pilots who are experienced team flyers (but not with each >> other), can far more quickly become a new team, than a team made up of any >> other combination such as: Two pilots who have never team flown at all; a >> team of one experienced team flyer, and one pilot who has never team flown >> before. A further interesting question is "what is the ideal team size"? My >> own suspicion is that to a limited extent, more is better. In the world of >> professional bike racing, the team size is 9 riders. In gliding at World >> level, I think 3 pilots per class is the official limit, so I suspect that >> the possibilities of a team larger than 3 has never been explored! Can >> perhaps some research dollars be obtained (to the greater good of Oz >> gliding, and indeed World gliding), to explore this subject? I am certain >> that there is the odd PhD or two that could be obtained here, and the pilots >> in the studies would of course have to undergo maybe hundreds of hours of >> team flying in the interest of this research! What a bugger! >> >> ************************************************************** >> The Question >> For the sake of this post, assume that we have a team of two pilots who are >> competent in team flying. They are pitted against many individual pilots. As >> outlined above, we know that there is an advantage in team flying. >> So the question is "what do YOU think is the percentage advantage of the >> team flyers over an individual pilot under 'normal' Australian Summer >> conditions." As every exam paper demands - state why you formed this >> viewpoint. >> >> Regards, >> Gary >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> To check or change subscription details, visit: >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> To check or change subscription details, visit: >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net >> To check or change subscription details, visit: >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
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