Anything I can assist with just ask. HpH aircraft are beautifully finished and a delight to fly.
> On 14 Jul 2014, at 2:20 pm, John Roake <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 14/07/14 2:55 PM, "Rob Izatt" <[email protected]> wrote: Our > reply hereunder: > > We must be on the ball! > > Only last week, I approved the costs of Aldo Cernezzi's travel to the > TwinShark factory for a write up on the plant and their M.D.'s stated goals > for this new two seater. Comments filtering through seem they have goals and > hopes 'over the moon'. > > Hope to have it all on hand to appear in the space reserved in our next > issue. > > John Roake > > >> HpH have been spending considerable time and money on this point with >> engineers who specifically work in the wide body jet area. The TwinShark has >> been delayed as the boss is adamant he wants something better. One of the >> primary areas they are also working on is the weight of non flying parts - >> fuselage. The factory does risk missing the boat with the Arcus/32/JS2 unless >> of course it is great. >> >>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 12:39 pm, Richard Frawley <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> what is presented here seems to be in contradiction to the successes and >>> efficiency of wide body jets vs their narrow body predecessors. >>> >>> I would be very interested to hear from design experts in this thread. From >>> what i have read from experts elsewhere, it appears to be not the cross >>> sectional area of the fuze that makes the difference, but the actual overall >>> design (to maintain laminar flow and minimize separation) and particularly >>> the efficiency of the interface between fuze and the wing that can have >>> significant effect. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> At 10:30 PM 13/07/2014, you wrote: >>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. Re: 20M gliders (Matthew Scutter) >>>> 2. Re: 20M gliders (Mike Borgelt) >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2014 16:18:50 +1000 >>>> From: Matthew Scutter <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: >>>> <CALubygTZ5j=A3Mj-4eiXPJAZTcxKN0uBQ=co_x5eb_lxfke...@mail.gmail.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> I see EB has essentially fit two pilots in a single seat EB29 with their >>>> EB29D ( >>>> http://www.binder-flugmotorenbau.de/eb29d-racing-doppelsitzer.html?&L=1), >>>> so I expect there is plenty of scope for improvement in fuselage size with >>>> ergonomic innovations. >>>>> On 12 Jul 2014 22:34, "Harry" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Mike, >>>>> >>>>> It?s all about driving a large fuselage through the air. The quite small >>>>> size difference between say, a Discus A and B fuselage makes an >>>>> appreciable >>>>> difference in performance, particularly at higher speeds. Compare the >>>>> massive size difference between an ASG 29 and a two seater fuselage. I >>>>> don?t know what the actual drag figures are but they must be a large >>>>> difference. Likewise the two seater ASH 25 and Nimbus 3DMs and 4DMs are >>>>> left far behind the ballasted 18 metre gliders when the speeds get up a >>>>> bit. The actual Arcus fuselage is very similar to the 20 year old Nimbus >>>>> 3D >>>>> fuselages so I guess there was not much scope to improve them much.The >>>>> Jonkers JS fuselage is reputed to be an exact copy of an earlier German >>>>> glider. Actually expected the new Schleicher 32 fuselage, being a new >>>>> design, to have lesser drag but the information from Finland is not >>>>> indicative of a substantial improvement. Time will tell. Am sure you could >>>>> give us some useful information on drag calculations, >>>>> >>>>> Harry Medlicott >>>>> *From:* Rob Izatt <[email protected]> >>>>> *Sent:* Saturday, July 12, 2014 7:09 PM >>>>> *To:* Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. >>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders >>>>> >>>>> You can get two people in a two seater and share the fun which is the >>>>> wholepoint of said two seaters. Without handicaps glider comps would be >>>>> even less viable. >>>>> >>>>> On 12 Jul 2014, at 5:59 pm, Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> From what has been written here over the last few days, it is >>>>> disappointing that a new flapped 20M two seater doesn't have as good >>>>> performance as a 15M unflapped glider. >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *Borgelt Instruments* - >>>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978* >>>>> www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20140 >>>> 713/e742ec97/attachment.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2014 12:00:07 +1000 >>>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >>>> >>>> Rob, >>>> I've done enough 2 seat cross country flying to >>>> realise the fun involved, I'm talking aerodynamics. >>>> >>>> Harry, >>>> >>>> There may be more wetted area and cross section >>>> on the 2 seat fuselage but comparing a Discus2 B >>>> to an Arcus (this necessarily approximate) I get >>>> about 32% more cross section on the Arcus >>>> fuselage and about 49% more wetted area. Shape is >>>> similar so I'd expect similar drag coefficients. >>>> The mass is 800 Kg vs 525 at gross which is 52% >>>> greater so at any given sink rate the POWER is >>>> 52% greater. The wing area is 15.6 M^2 vs 10.16 >>>> M^2 so a ratio of 1.54 (rounded up). >>>> No large differences (slightly worse at 750Kg) >>>> and as the Arcus has flaps I'd expect it to >>>> perform the same at mid range speeds and better >>>> at high speeds where the Standard Class glider >>>> starts to go out of the low drag region of the airfoil. >>>> Span loading is different though (mass per unit >>>> span) for the Arcus 800/20 =40, for the D2 525/15 >>>> 35. Induced drag is dependent on the square of >>>> the span loading - derived here >>>> http://aerocrafty.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/span-loading.html >>>> (weird website behaviour on my office PC but >>>> works Ok in the iPad in Chrome) so yes, the two >>>> seat Arcus and ASG32Mi likely will climb worse >>>> than the 15M standard class glider even though >>>> the Reynolds numbers on the Arcus wing are 15% >>>> higher (lower profile drag coefficient). Why the >>>> high speed performance is worse is a mystery. >>>> >>>> I don't have any numbers on the height and width >>>> of the ASG32 fuselage but if less than that of >>>> the Arcus I'd expect an improvement. >>>> >>>> I wouldn't draw any conclusion about the ASG32 >>>> performance from Finland except that it is >>>> clearly not a terrible glider in performance >>>> compared to the Arcus and looks nice. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> At 10:33 PM 12/07/2014, you wrote: >>>>> Mike, >>>>> >>>>> It???s all about driving a large fuselage >>>>> through the air. The quite small size difference >>>>> between say, a Discus A and B fuselage makes an >>>>> appreciable difference in performance, >>>>> particularly at higher speeds. Compare the >>>>> massive size difference between an ASG 29 and a >>>>> two seater fuselage. I don???t know what the >>>>> actual drag figures are but they must be a large >>>>> difference. Likewise the two seater ASH 25 and >>>>> Nimbus 3DMs and 4DMs are left far behind the >>>>> ballasted 18 metre gliders when the speeds get >>>>> up a bit. The actual Arcus fuselage is very >>>>> similar to the 20 year old Nimbus 3D fuselages >>>>> so I guess there was not much scope to improve >>>>> them much.The Jonkers JS fuselage is reputed to >>>>> be an exact copy of an earlier German glider. >>>>> Actually expected the new Schleicher 32 >>>>> fuselage, being a new design, to have lesser >>>>> drag but the information from Finland is not >>>>> indicative of a substantial improvement. Time >>>>> will tell. Am sure you could give us some useful >>>>> information on drag calculations, >>>>> >>>>> Harry Medlicott >>>>> From: <mailto:[email protected]>Rob Izatt >>>>> Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2014 7:09 PM >>>>> To: >>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>Discussion >>>>> of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. >>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders >>>>> >>>>> You can get two people in a two seater and share >>>>> the fun which is the wholepoint of said two >>>>> seaters. Without handicaps glider comps would be even less viable. >>>>> >>>>> On 12 Jul 2014, at 5:59 pm, Mike Borgelt >>>>> <<mailto:[email protected]>[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> From what has been written here over the last >>>>>> few days, it is disappointing that a new >>>>>> flapped 20M two seater doesn't have as good >>>>>> performance as a 15M unflapped glider. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of >>>>>> quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 >>>>>> www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] >>>>>> node.on.net >>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring>http:/ >>>>>> /lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ---------- >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of >>>> quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 >>>> www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>> -------------- next part -------------- >>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20140 >>>> 714/8cd662e4/attachment.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 130, Issue 19 >>>> ******************************************** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> [email protected] >> To check or change subscription details, visit: >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
