And that is exactly where you might have to be corrected, Mike.
There is not such a thing as a multi purpose trainer, regardless of what some
glossy brochures claim. In the past
too many slippery two-seaters were purchased in the mistaken belief that they
can also serve the club as a basic
trainer.
Of course, basic training can be conducted in a slippery aircraft but the fact
remains that students usually take about
50% longer to go solo and a UK report clearly underlines this statement.
The unfortunate consequence is that the far majority of students run out of
money and drop out of gliding in sheer
frustration. All too often the reason is simple and easy to see - difficulties
with speed control and unnecessary high
landing speeds with demanding aircraft primarily designed with performance in
mind.
But you are not the only experienced pilot who has forgotten what it was like
to learn to fly without an engine. I bet
you learned to fly in a dedicated trainer and because you made good progress
you remained true to the sport to
this day. Please spare a thought for these poor newcomers who need to put up
with something that you and I can
handle but they find highly frustrating and very difficult to handle. They
simply give up when they cannot see the
light at the end of the tunnel.
In conclusion, one not insignificant way to reduce our high drop-out rates is
conducting basic training in aircraft
designed and built for nothing but this purpose. Give them docile aircraft,
take the stress away and let them have
fun!!! This is becoming increasingly obvious to many clubs around the world and
that’s why many of them have
purchased dedicated trainers within a year of getting a slippery two-seater.
Anything else is contributing to digging
the grave for gliding in the medium to long term.
A very Merry Christmas to all of you!
Bernard
PS: No, Mike - it wasn’t me who told you that Vorgelat was still a pretty good
option. I’m very disappointed that you
now publicly imply that such rubbish has come across my lips.
> On 23 Dec 2014, at 10:03 am, Mike Borgelt <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> I don't dislike the K21, I just don't see the point to it in the 21st century
> as it is a low performance glider by modern standards and I don't believe
> primary flight training should be done in gliders nowadays for reasons I've
> mentioned before.
> BTW wasn't it you who was telling me in a phone conversation not long ago
> that Vorgelat T35 was still a pretty good option for the finish?
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 23 Dec 2014, at 6:04 am, Bernhard <[email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>
>> Good morning Mike
>>
>> Please allow me to point out that the last ASK 21 with Vorgelat left the
>> factory about 20 years ago and
>> the same applies to other gliders and other manufacturers.
>> Sine we have taken over the agency almost 30 ASK 21 were sold to Australian
>> customers alone and
>> all but one (1) customer opted for a PU finish. Even after 10 years the
>> paintwork on some of the PU
>> gliders looks almost as good as new. Their is no suggestion that they ever
>> required a refinish within
>> their 18000 hours of certified service life.
>>
>> Your dislike of the ASK 21 is well known amongst the subscribers of this
>> newsgroup. Of course, you
>> are entitled to an opinion but fortunately your opinion is shared by many
>> others and in particular not
>> by people who operate and maintain ASK 21s. To date fife (5) Australian
>> clubs purchased their
>> second ASK 21 only a few years after getting their first one. Perhaps you
>> would also like to know
>> that the factory is getting close to dispatching their 1000th ASK 21. This
>> would most certainly not be
>> the case if the ASK 21 wasn’t exceeding our customer’s expectations.
>>
>> I’m looking forward to your reply but I would very much appreciate if you
>> could refrain from the usual
>> personal attacks!
>>
>> Many thanks in advance!
>>
>> Kind regards and a Merry Christmas to Carol and yourself!!!
>>
>> Bernard
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 22 Dec 2014, at 11:32 pm, Mike Borgelt <[email protected]
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ask the guys who've had to strip and refinish a Vorgelat K21.
>>>
>>> If you think the Blanik was horrible to fly you must have flown a badly
>>> rigged example ( possible, given some of the rocket scientists maintaining
>>> gliders in Australia) or your perception of flying qualities is somewhat
>>> off. OK the comfort of the front seat is nothing to write home about ( my
>>> theory is that the seat tester later got a job at GMH, walks in a crouch,
>>> has long arms and shaggy hair all over).
>>>
>>> Mike
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 22 Dec 2014, at 8:02 pm, Derek Ruddock <[email protected]
>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Our IS 28’s were a nightmare to maintain and regularly went out of service
>>>> for maintenance or due to unavailability of spare parts.
>>>> The K21’s by contrast are a delight: the only downtime has been for
>>>> regular and brief servicing.
>>>> One thing the IS28’s were good at is for the teaching of spins.
>>>> Derek
>>>> 205 flights and 86 hours in K21’s
>>>> 666 flights and 300 hours in IS 28’s
>>>> 1 flight and 0.7 hours in a Blanik: I reckon that was about 0.7 hours too
>>>> long J
>>>>
>>>> From: [email protected]
>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>> [mailto:[email protected]
>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Leigh
>>>> Bunting
>>>> Sent: Monday, 22 December 2014 9:59 PM
>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] IS-28B CQC's last flying day:
>>>>
>>>> Gee Mike,
>>>>
>>>> I can see that you have never had to work on these "eastern-bloc" metal
>>>> gliders. I consider that they were a Communist plot to send western glider
>>>> pilots mad.
>>>>
>>>> I spent 30 years working on Blaniks and they were a nightmare to keep
>>>> tight. Forever replacing control circuit bearings for one thing. I
>>>> understand that IS28's are similar. I have many, many more hours tearings
>>>> Blaniks apart and putting them back together than sitting in the cockpit,
>>>> even though a Blanik is quite nice to fly. The only thing in a Blanik I
>>>> never took apart was the oleo strut.
>>>>
>>>> Back in the days Mike Burns was CTO, I said to him that I could ground
>>>> every Blanik in Australia because one AD required measuring spar pin holes
>>>> to 3-decimal places with tolerances to 4 IIRC. I had access to metrology
>>>> equipment that could measure those numbers. Our Blaniks were out of spec
>>>> then and I imagine no used Blanik then or now would comply - if that joke
>>>> of an AD is still applicable.
>>>>
>>>> After we sold our last Blanik, I followed the new owner down to the
>>>> airfield gate and locked it behind him so he couldn't get back in if he
>>>> changed his mind. Then I went to the RTO/A and had all my metal ratings
>>>> removed, so now I cannot even DI a tin can.
>>>>
>>>> These things were never meant to last as long as we have had them.
>>>> Especially in our dusty climate. In the Communist countries, I'm led to
>>>> believe that they replaced them regularly. I'm sure they never slaved over
>>>> them like we have. There are even odd individuals who LIKE working on the
>>>> things. These people are very 'special' to be politically correct.
>>>>
>>>> Having flown an IS28 once, I find your comparison to an ASK21 puzzling.
>>>> Maybe on paper, but certainly not in practice. I found that you could
>>>> thermal the thing with negative flap and it didn't appear to make any
>>>> difference to positive flap. It's front pole was even longer than a
>>>> Blanik's. I seem to remember feeling like having to look around my hand to
>>>> see ahead. Anyway, the IS28 is nowhere near as pleasant as an ASK21. At
>>>> least in a Blanik, I could thermal with full flap, elevator and trim
>>>> against the back stops and 25kts or less on the dial.
>>>>
>>>> Let us know how many hours you have flying a Blanik, IS28 and ASK21 and
>>>> I'll dig out mine so we can compare experience.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers and happy xmas,
>>>> Leigh Bunting
>>>>
>>>> On 22/12/14 15:08, Mike Borgelt wrote:
>>>> Shameful is what it is. It is well known that metal aircraft have two
>>>> problems when they age:
>>>> Fatigue and corrosion, both of which can be inspected for and rectified if
>>>> required.
>>>> Now it may not be economical to do the rectification but that can depend
>>>> on the particular circumstances of the owner.
>>>> Nothing to do with calendar life at all and an IS28 is hardly obsolete for
>>>> the purposes for which it is flown. As I have noted before, an ASK21 is
>>>> essentially a fibreglass IS 28. Look them up in Martin Simon's book on
>>>> sailplanes 1965 to 2000.
>>>> What a pity we don't have in this country an organisation dedicated to
>>>> promoting the interests of glider pilots and glider owners.
>>>>
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