So where did you get your knowledge of the Puch spin in at Cal city? Mike
> On 28 Dec 2014, at 8:59 am, stephenk <[email protected]> wrote: > > And that is what is so annoying about this whole discussion. Only a little > factual documentation* exists about the whole issue. Yes, I have seen a > number of posts by the person you mentioned but dont recall/cant find one > like that. Here's a post from the same person > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/JQvuWQYd-9k > regarding the "rudder dropping off" a Puchacz, with later posters giving a > link to an FAA report which purportedly confirms it. Except the link doesn't > confirm it, no incident seems to exist in the FAA database now and another > poster said they were from the club in question and the source of the story > wasn't telling what really happened. > > It's happening in this thread too, Derek said he recalled 26 fatalities from > Puchacz spin accidents and Bernard has talked about 26 fatal spin accidents. > Meanwhile has anyone ever actually seen the original list which was being > discussed in the mid 2000's? > > *And yet another example. Bernard recalls Mike Valentine calling the Puchacz > a "widow maker". In my previous reply to Derek I almost made mention of _my_ > recollections of what Mike V said. Strangely enough, I was at those > instructor seminars which Bernard refers to, as from the late 80's till about > 2000 I was CFI of Port Augusta gliding club. I do remember Mike V talking > about the Puchacz and calling it an "honest aeroplane". ie in the sense that > it behaved in a text book manner, if you mishandled it it would depart into > "classic" spin behaviour and because it was heavy it would take a fair bit of > space below to recover. Not saying Bernards recollection is entirely wrong > either, we might be remembering two different parts of the same elephant. > > Regards > SWK > > >> On 28/12/2014 10:41 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote: >> I've never seen an official NTSB report on it but it was reported on r.a.s. >> in a thread on Puch spinning after another Puch spin in elsewhere. >> IIRC it was Cindy Brickner who posted that information. R.a.s. Is probably >> archived somewhere. >> >> >> Note also we've had one near spin in by two level 3 instructors in W.A., >> reported here by one of them And a Puch spin in at Narrogin by an >> experienced instructor with student from low level thermalling. >> >> Maybe all the spin recovery training in the world is simply ineffective when >> the aim is to prevent spinning in the first place. Spinning is not a normal >> manoeuvre in soaring flight. >> Spin prevention training doesn't seem to help much either, although both are >> a good idea. Simulators may help but we have no information. >> It seems possible that the real problem is that task prioritisation has been >> incorrectly or not taught, including the ability to not get distracted, >> focus on just one thing and forget all the others. It only takes a few >> seconds. >> As Alan Rundle once said "flying is easy, you can teach a monkey to fly an >> aeroplane. It is the thinking that goes with it that is hard to teach." >> >> Mike >> On 27 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, stephenk <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Mike, >>> you've made this claim before. I assume it is another incident, not the >>> Caracole one (because they weren't that high, nor were they ex test pilots) >>> But I've never been able to find any other references to an accident like >>> this and the NTSB database only seems to show up 4 Puchacz accidents in >>> total >>> >>> EventId InvestigationType AccidentNumber EventDate >>> Location Country Latitude Longitude AirportCode >>> AirportName InjurySeverity AircraftDamage AircraftCategory >>> RegistrationNumber Make Model >>> 20040730X01116 Accident LAX04CA270 07/18/2004 Lone >>> Pine, CA United States 36.588333 -118.051944 O26 Lone >>> Pine Non-Fatal Substantial >>> N19SZ PDPS PZL-BIELSKO SZD-50-3 >>> 20040406X00422 Accident FTW04LA103 04/04/2004 Cherry >>> Valley, AR United States 35.370834 -90.750556 >>> >>> Non-Fatal Substantial >>> N18SZ PDPS PZL-Bielsko SZD-50-3 >>> 20030605X00794 Accident LAX03LA165 05/26/2003 Minden, >>> NV United States 39.000278 -119.750833 MEV >>> Minden-Tahoe Airport Non-Fatal Substantial >>> N503HC PZL-Bielsko SZD-50-3 >>> 20001211X10620 Accident LAX98FA235 07/17/1998 >>> CALIFORNIA CITY, CA United States >>> >>> >>> >>> Fatal(2) Destroyed >>> N7215L PZL-Bielsko SZD 50-3 >>> Do you have any other references? >>> >>> Regards >>> SWK >>> >>> >>>> On 27/12/2014 10:22 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote: >>>> Well one was two USAF test pilot school graduates from at least 3500 feet >>>> AGL. >>>> >>>> Mike > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > To check or change subscription details, visit: > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
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