I certainly share your desire to see those traffic types with greater resolution!
Unfortunately, TABS is not designed to do that. It's a way of making 'us' visible to 'them'. As we pretty much all carry one or more accurate but not certified GPS sources already, it's purpose (FAA TSO-C199) is to make gliders and other exempted aircraft such as balloons visible, making use of these non-TSO'd GPS's for collision avoidance purposes. It's basically a cost effective way to turn us into non-certified ADS-B out aircraft. ATC still won't use the ADS-B data due to signal integrity & fault monitoring reasons but it permits our current GPS sources (PowerFLARM, LX, CN etc) to be used for collision avoidance. In my case, I have an ADS-B Out capable, Mode S XPDR but no legal position information to feed it. If TABS is adopted, it would let me output my PF/LX GPS position to my XPDR, making me visible to systems such as TCAS in powered aircraft. But....it still doesn't add any visibility of powered aircraft to us. If they aren't ADS-B Out equipped, the best we can get is a range ring on PowerFLARM. Of course, this assumes you haven't spent 10's of thousands on TCAS for your sailplane. Who would?!? I guess we can only hope that AsA/CASA return to mandated ADS-B out for all powered aircraft, as the USA has done with a 2020 deadline. Case iPad transmission > On 21 May 2015, at 11:19, [email protected] wrote: > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Casey Jay Lewis) > 2. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Erich Wittstock) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:51:09 +0800 > From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 > To: "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye out! :P > > It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its > capabilities/requirements. > > You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and that's > just not true. > > With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude information > for: > - PowerFLARM traffic > - OzFLARM traffic > - ADS-B equipped traffic > You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators' > > You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down to a mere > 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders. > > It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but they've > clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to force upgrades to > the latest standard, with all the associated benefits that entails. Make no > mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working just as it always has. > > PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only are the > frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but the FCC also > mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No conspiracy theory there. > > Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue. Other > entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal information in > contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't give two hoots if someone > tracks my gliders position on OGN, FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc but others > may and can try suing the bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A > detailed article in Gliding International covered this. > > If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision > avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of safety, > once the privacy issue is addressed. So long as they keep their word on > this, I have no problem with the path they've taken. > > Best regards, > > Casey > PowerFLARM user since 2012 > > iPad transmission > >> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, [email protected] wrote: >> >> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) >> 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike Borgelt) >> 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000 >> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: >> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >> >> Please correct me if I am wrong: >> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly working >> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >> >> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people own >> gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not cheap >> instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a powerFlarm. >> ..I would sign if I were you. >> Erich >> >> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit like a >> joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of direction. >> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/01668b35/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000 >> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >> To: [email protected] >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> As far as I have understood and experienced: >> >> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have two >> gliders to confirm) >> but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work in Australia (we can confirm >> that also :-( ). >> >> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian frequency >> when they find themselves in Australia. >> We also have experienced this. >> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically. >> >> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have >> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the WGC in >> Benalla. >> >> Grietje >> >>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote: >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>> >>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>> >>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a >>> powerFlarm. >>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>> Erich >>> >>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication >>> of direction. >>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000 >> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >> >> Erich, >> >> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like >> Flarm. You may be seeing Mode S returns with no >> ADSB position/speed/direction information in the >> message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. >> >> OK what is TABS? >> >> Mike >> >> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>> <https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol>https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>> >>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to >>> replace your perfectly working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly >>> $2500! >>> >>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be >>> affected. Some people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your >>> very nice but not cheap instrument will be >>> rendered useless and you will have to buy a powerFlarm. >>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>> Erich >>> >>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic >>> monitoring is a bit like a joke. Yes, there is a >>> warning of "incoming". But no indication of direction. >>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>> ? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of >> quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 >> www.borgeltinstruments.com >> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000 >> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: >> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi Mike (et al), >> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system. >> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm - it >> still is not the best solution. Just more expensive. >> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do not get >> a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm traffic is >> shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc... >> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after you >> throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument panel and get >> additional boxes containing magic smoke. >> >> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System". >>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another (new) box >> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder smoke. It >> will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm. >> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke. >> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS%20briefing.pdf >> >> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS. >> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to fork out >> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and want >> all other manufacturers out of their business. >> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it is too >> light (that's why it is great for a glider). >> >> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to operate >> at different frequencies - to work in different countries. Later Flarm >> firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and allow you to take a >> flarm from Europe to the US and Australia without any problems. >> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change frequencies >> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that! Why? >> because they can! >> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the millenair >> website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't wait for TABS. >> >> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise the good >> 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch automatically according >> where you are. However, I can foresee that being stopped by the "flarm data >> encryption". You will need two powerflarms: One for Europe and the other >> for US/Australia. >> >> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and just using >> it with a sim card from that country.. >> >> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that are >> capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm. >> Erich >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Erich, >>> >>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be seeing >>> Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction information in the >>> message. Or Mode C returns which won't give direction either. Both should >>> give relative altitudes though. >>> >>> OK what is TABS? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>> >>> >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>> >>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly working >>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>> >>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people own >>> gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not cheap >>> instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a powerFlarm. >>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>> Erich >>> >>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit like a >>> joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of direction. >>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>> ? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> *Borgelt Instruments* - >>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 * >>> www.borgeltinstruments.com >>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >> ******************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:14:34 +1000 > From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <caph3infsfuvpcpgv8efhqxyfcm0fqmx+a1yk3nqxuhy9hvr...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > So far it's a hit by a "spud gun". You don't even wanna know that the shot > gun impact would look like.. ;-) > > I am not worried about other gliders - they will be flarm equipped. I do > worry about GA traffic. Because any "near-miss" will compromise our freedom > of (gliding) ability. > PowerFlarm will tell me: there is a transponder signal in a "near enough is > good enough" manner (no punt intended). > > OK, taken from the powerflarm manual: > *Mode C signals only carry altitude information, but no identification. To > avoid that an the aircraft?s own Mode C transponder is constantly displayed > as a very close target, PowerFLARM identifies the strongest Mode C signal > and suppresses it.* (no surprise here - that's why mode-s was implemented) > > > > > > *ADS-B alertsADS-B OUT broadcasts have originally been designed for ground- > based surveillance and collision avoidance by Air Traffic Control. The use > of ADS-B for airborne collision alerts is often limited by factors such > as:? Absence of horizontal and/or vertical speed data? Absence of GPS > altitude data? Erroneous transmission of position and/or velocity data? > Time lag in position data* > ...bla bla bla... and then this: > *However, ADS-B does not provide sufficiently precise data to warn about > glider traffic with its frequent altitude changes and steep turns.* > *To ensure best alert quality, PowerFLARM therefore does not use ADS-B data > to compute alerts for glider targets. Instead, it will exclusively rely on > the target's much more precise FLARM data.* > > I want to be able to see the Flying Doctor and the Mining-fly-in-fly-out > plane just like a flarm target. And that is not the case with a powerFlarm > unless these planes are flarm equipped. > All you get is: "incoming" - no direction. > > PowerFlarm does not display transponder traffic sufficiently. > > I am waiting for TABS and am happy to pay $1500 for something that actually > works. > Erich > > > >> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye out! :P >> >> It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its >> capabilities/requirements. >> >> You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and >> that's just not true. >> >> With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude information >> for: >> - PowerFLARM traffic >> - OzFLARM traffic >> - ADS-B equipped traffic >> You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators' >> >> You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down to a >> mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders. >> >> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but they've >> clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to force upgrades >> to the latest standard, with all the associated benefits that entails. >> Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working just as it >> always has. >> >> PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only are the >> frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but the FCC also >> mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No conspiracy theory there. >> >> Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue. >> Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal information >> in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't give two hoots if >> someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc >> but others may and can try suing the bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting >> it happen. A detailed article in Gliding International covered this. >> >> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision >> avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of safety, >> once the privacy issue is addressed. So long as they keep their word on >> this, I have no problem with the path they've taken. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Casey >> PowerFLARM user since 2012 >> >> iPad transmission >> >>>> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, [email protected] >>> wrote: >>> >>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> [email protected] >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) >>> 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike Borgelt) >>> 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000 >>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>> <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: >>> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>> >>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >> working >>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>> >>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people own >>> gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not cheap >>> instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a >> powerFlarm. >>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>> Erich >>> >>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit like a >>> joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of >> direction. >>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/01668b35/attachment.html >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000 >>> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: [email protected] >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >>> >>> As far as I have understood and experienced: >>> >>> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have two >>> gliders to confirm) >>> but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work in Australia (we can confirm >>> that also :-( ). >>> >>> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian frequency >>> when they find themselves in Australia. >>> We also have experienced this. >>> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically. >>> >>> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have >>> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the WGC in >>> Benalla. >>> >>> Grietje >>> >>>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote: >> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a >>>> powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication >>>> of direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000 >>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>> <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >>> >>> Erich, >>> >>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like >>> Flarm. You may be seeing Mode S returns with no >>> ADSB position/speed/direction information in the >>> message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. >>> >>> OK what is TABS? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>>> < >> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to >>>> replace your perfectly working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly >> $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be >>>> affected. Some people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation >> Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your >>>> very nice but not cheap instrument will be >>>> rendered useless and you will have to buy a powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic >>>> monitoring is a bit like a joke. Yes, there is a >>>> warning of "incoming". But no indication of direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> ? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of >>> quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 >>> www.borgeltinstruments.com >>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 4 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000 >>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>> <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: >>> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Hi Mike (et al), >>> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system. >>> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm - it >>> still is not the best solution. Just more expensive. >>> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do not >> get >>> a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm traffic is >>> shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc... >>> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after you >>> throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument panel and get >>> additional boxes containing magic smoke. >>> >>> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System". >>>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another (new) >> box >>> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder smoke. It >>> will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm. >>> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke. >> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS%20briefing.pdf >>> >>> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS. >>> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to fork >> out >>> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and want >>> all other manufacturers out of their business. >>> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it is >> too >>> light (that's why it is great for a glider). >>> >>> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to >> operate >>> at different frequencies - to work in different countries. Later Flarm >>> firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and allow you to take >> a >>> flarm from Europe to the US and Australia without any problems. >>> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change >> frequencies >>> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that! >> Why? >>> because they can! >>> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the millenair >>> website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't wait for TABS. >>> >>> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise the good >>> 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch automatically >> according >>> where you are. However, I can foresee that being stopped by the "flarm >> data >>> encryption". You will need two powerflarms: One for Europe and the other >>> for US/Australia. >>> >>> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and just >> using >>> it with a sim card from that country.. >>> >>> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that are >>> capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm. >>> Erich >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Erich, >>>> >>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be seeing >>>> Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction information in the >>>> message. Or Mode C returns which won't give direction either. Both >> should >>>> give relative altitudes though. >>>> >>>> OK what is TABS? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >> working >>>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people own >>>> gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not cheap >>>> instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a >> powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit like >> a >>>> joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of >> direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> ? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> *Borgelt Instruments* - >>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 * >>>> www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> -------------- next part -------------- >>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>> URL: < >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >>> ******************************************** >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> [email protected] >> To check or change subscription details, visit: >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments/20150521/3324870f/attachment.html> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 20 > ******************************************** _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
