Gents, are you forgetting flarmnet.org that links the device to an individual? Full name, home club, etc
iPhone Transmission > On 21 May, 2015, at 12:14, [email protected] wrote: > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 (Nigel Andrews) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:14:23 +1000 > From: "Nigel Andrews" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > > <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKHkN31zghRKpfIymq++SLjCgAAAEAAAAAO5V/cTJT1Jqg9X7v62A/[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Yep, thanks Al I think you covered it - privacy laws usually are aimed at > those who rebroadcast information without the owner's permission, not the > manufacturer who made the phone or two way radio that was intercepted! There > are thousands of ADS-B aircraft out there broadcasting their make, callsign, > position, speed, altitude - why isn't king or garmin getting sued over > privacy laws. > > Nigel > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 2:07 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Al Borowski) > 2. flarmin' hell (Casey Jay Lewis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:26:54 +1000 > From: Al Borowski <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > <cacsx6xcfn79fab2ugawcgox+gv8agdwtudeaofsqzfe4cuw...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> On 21/05/2015, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: >> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but they've >> clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to force >> upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated benefits that >> entails. Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working >> just as it always has. > > Unless I'm missing something obvious - if the protocol changes, but some > devices cannot be upgraded, those devices will become blind to other > gliders. Is this incorrect? > > If you have a fleet of gliders and half suddenly become invisible due to > time-bombed firmware, safety is lost. > >> Other >> entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal information in >> contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't give two hoots if >> someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, FlightAware, FlightRadar24 >> etc but others may and can try suing the bejesus out of PowerFLARM for >> letting it happen. A detailed article in Gliding International covered > this. > > I'm not a subscriber but I'd love to read that article. Is it illegal for me > to "track" a glider's position by listening to radio calls via an internet > stream? If so, surely the fault lies with me, not the manufacturer of the > radio gear. If someone uses a crowbar to break into my house, I can't sue > the manufacturer of the crowbar... > >> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision >> avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of >> safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. > > Frankly, I'm not sure the problem is sharing the "collision avoidance > technology" as if it is a clever secret no-one has figured out. I'd be > surprised if multiple people on this list couldn't come up with a FLARM > alternative, including designing the PCBs, programming the firmware & making > a reliable radio link. The problem is getting enough people to agree on a > standard so all gliders can see each other. > > The motivation behind changing the protocol appears to be to deliberate > obfuscate the signal that says "Hi Everyone, I am a glider at position X" to > prevent third parties building compatible systems. > Imagine if aircraft radios worked like this - Microair owners could only > talk to other Microair owners etc. > > I could have sworn I remember Flarm saying the protocol would be an "Open > Protocol in the interests of Safety" back when it was being introduced. > > Cheers, > > Al > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:06:30 +0800 > From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> > Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > To: "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I certainly share your desire to see those traffic types with greater > resolution! > > Unfortunately, TABS is not designed to do that. It's a way of making 'us' > visible to 'them'. As we pretty much all carry one or more accurate but not > certified GPS sources already, it's purpose (FAA TSO-C199) is to make > gliders and other exempted aircraft such as balloons visible, making use of > these non-TSO'd GPS's for collision avoidance purposes. It's basically a > cost effective way to turn us into non-certified ADS-B out aircraft. > > ATC still won't use the ADS-B data due to signal integrity & fault > monitoring reasons but it permits our current GPS sources (PowerFLARM, LX, > CN etc) to be used for collision avoidance. > > In my case, I have an ADS-B Out capable, Mode S XPDR but no legal position > information to feed it. If TABS is adopted, it would let me output my PF/LX > GPS position to my XPDR, making me visible to systems such as TCAS in > powered aircraft. But....it still doesn't add any visibility of powered > aircraft to us. If they aren't ADS-B Out equipped, the best we can get is a > range ring on PowerFLARM. Of course, this assumes you haven't spent 10's of > thousands on TCAS for your sailplane. Who would?!? I guess we can only > hope that AsA/CASA return to mandated ADS-B out for all powered aircraft, as > the USA has done with a 2020 deadline. > > Case > > iPad transmission > >>> On 21 May 2015, at 11:19, [email protected] >> wrote: >> >> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Casey Jay Lewis) >> 2. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Erich Wittstock) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:51:09 +0800 >> From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >> To: "[email protected]" >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye >> out! :P >> >> It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its > capabilities/requirements. >> >> You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and > that's just not true. >> >> With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude information > for: >> - PowerFLARM traffic >> - OzFLARM traffic >> - ADS-B equipped traffic >> You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators' >> >> You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down to a > mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders. >> >> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but they've > clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to force upgrades > to the latest standard, with all the associated benefits that entails. Make > no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working just as it always > has. >> >> PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only are the > frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but the FCC also > mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No conspiracy theory there. >> >> Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue. > Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal information in > contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't give two hoots if > someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc > but others may and can try suing the bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting > it happen. A detailed article in Gliding International covered this. >> >> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision > avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of safety, > once the privacy issue is addressed. So long as they keep their word on > this, I have no problem with the path they've taken. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Casey >> PowerFLARM user since 2012 >> >> iPad transmission >> >>> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, [email protected] > wrote: >>> >>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> [email protected] >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike >>> Borgelt) 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000 >>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>> <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-aga >>> inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>> >>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>> >>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a > powerFlarm. >>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>> Erich >>> >>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of > direction. >>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>> s/20150521/01668b35/attachment.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000 >>> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: [email protected] >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >>> >>> As far as I have understood and experienced: >>> >>> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have two >>> gliders to confirm) but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work in >>> Australia (we can confirm that also :-( ). >>> >>> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian frequency >>> when they find themselves in Australia. >>> We also have experienced this. >>> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically. >>> >>> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have >>> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the WGC >>> in Benalla. >>> >>> Grietje >>> >>>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote: >>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>>> ainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a >>>> powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>> indication of direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>> s/20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000 >>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>> <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >>> >>> Erich, >>> >>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. >>> >>> OK what is TABS? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>>> <https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-a >>>> gainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol>https:// >>>> www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-fl >>>> arm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a >>>> powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>> indication of direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> ? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring >>> instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com >>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>> s/20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 4 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000 >>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>> <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Hi Mike (et al), >>> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system. >>> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm - >>> it still is not the best solution. Just more expensive. >>> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do >>> not get a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm >>> traffic is shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc... >>> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after >>> you throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument panel >>> and get additional boxes containing magic smoke. >>> >>> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System". >>>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another >>>> (new) box >>> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder >>> smoke. It will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm. >>> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke. >>> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS% >>> 20briefing.pdf >>> >>> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS. >>> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to >>> fork out >>> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and >>> want all other manufacturers out of their business. >>> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it >>> is too light (that's why it is great for a glider). >>> >>> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to >>> operate at different frequencies - to work in different countries. >>> Later Flarm firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and >>> allow you to take a flarm from Europe to the US and Australia without any > problems. >>> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change >>> frequencies >>> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that! > Why? >>> because they can! >>> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the >>> millenair website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't wait > for TABS. >>> >>> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise the >>> good 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch >>> automatically according where you are. However, I can foresee that >>> being stopped by the "flarm data encryption". You will need two >>> powerflarms: One for Europe and the other for US/Australia. >>> >>> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and just >>> using it with a sim card from that country.. >>> >>> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that are >>> capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm. >>> Erich >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Erich, >>>> >>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. >>>> >>>> OK what is TABS? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>>> ainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a > powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of > direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> ? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> *Borgelt Instruments* - >>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 >>>> * www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>> s/20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >>> ******************************************** >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:14:34 +1000 >> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: >> >> <caph3infsfuvpcpgv8efhqxyfcm0fqmx+a1yk3nqxuhy9hvr...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> So far it's a hit by a "spud gun". You don't even wanna know that the >> shot gun impact would look like.. ;-) >> >> I am not worried about other gliders - they will be flarm equipped. I >> do worry about GA traffic. Because any "near-miss" will compromise our >> freedom of (gliding) ability. >> PowerFlarm will tell me: there is a transponder signal in a "near >> enough is good enough" manner (no punt intended). >> >> OK, taken from the powerflarm manual: >> *Mode C signals only carry altitude information, but no >> identification. To avoid that an the aircraft?s own Mode C transponder >> is constantly displayed as a very close target, PowerFLARM identifies >> the strongest Mode C signal and suppresses it.* (no surprise here - >> that's why mode-s was implemented) >> >> >> >> >> >> *ADS-B alertsADS-B OUT broadcasts have originally been designed for >> ground- based surveillance and collision avoidance by Air Traffic >> Control. The use of ADS-B for airborne collision alerts is often >> limited by factors such as:? Absence of horizontal and/or vertical >> speed data? Absence of GPS altitude data? Erroneous transmission of > position and/or velocity data? >> Time lag in position data* >> ...bla bla bla... and then this: >> *However, ADS-B does not provide sufficiently precise data to warn >> about glider traffic with its frequent altitude changes and steep >> turns.* *To ensure best alert quality, PowerFLARM therefore does not >> use ADS-B data to compute alerts for glider targets. Instead, it will >> exclusively rely on the target's much more precise FLARM data.* >> >> I want to be able to see the Flying Doctor and the >> Mining-fly-in-fly-out plane just like a flarm target. And that is not >> the case with a powerFlarm unless these planes are flarm equipped. >> All you get is: "incoming" - no direction. >> >> PowerFlarm does not display transponder traffic sufficiently. >> >> I am waiting for TABS and am happy to pay $1500 for something that >> actually works. >> Erich >> >> >> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye >>> out! :P >>> >>> It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its >>> capabilities/requirements. >>> >>> You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and >>> that's just not true. >>> >>> With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude >>> information >>> for: >>> - PowerFLARM traffic >>> - OzFLARM traffic >>> - ADS-B equipped traffic >>> You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators' >>> >>> You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down >>> to a mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders. >>> >>> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but >>> they've clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to >>> force upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated benefits > that entails. >>> Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working just as >>> it always has. >>> >>> PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only >>> are the frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but >>> the FCC also mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No conspiracy > theory there. >>> >>> Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue. >>> Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal >>> information in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't >>> give two hoots if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, >>> FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the >>> bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article in > Gliding International covered this. >>> >>> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision >>> avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of >>> safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. So long as they keep >>> their word on this, I have no problem with the path they've taken. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Casey >>> PowerFLARM user since 2012 >>> >>> iPad transmission >>> >>>>> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, >>>>> [email protected] >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>>> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike >>>> Borgelt) 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000 >>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-aga >>> inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>> working >>>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a >>> powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>> indication of >>> direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: < >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments >>> /20150521/01668b35/attachment.html >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000 >>>> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >>>> >>>> As far as I have understood and experienced: >>>> >>>> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have >>>> two gliders to confirm) but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work >>>> in Australia (we can confirm that also :-( ). >>>> >>>> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian >>>> frequency when they find themselves in Australia. >>>> We also have experienced this. >>>> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically. >>>> >>>> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have >>>> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the WGC >>>> in Benalla. >>>> >>>> Grietje >>>> >>>>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote: >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-aga >>> inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>> >>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>>> >>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>> a powerFlarm. >>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>> Erich >>>>> >>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>>> indication of direction. >>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: < >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments >>> /20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000 >>>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >>>> >>>> Erich, >>>> >>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. >>>> >>>> OK what is TABS? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>>>> < >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-aga >>> inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-aga >>> inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>> >>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly >>> $2500! >>>>> >>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation >>> Zeus.. >>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>> a powerFlarm. >>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>> Erich >>>>> >>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>>> indication of direction. >>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>> ? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring >>>> instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: < >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments >>> /20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000 >>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> Hi Mike (et al), >>>> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system. >>>> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm - >>>> it still is not the best solution. Just more expensive. >>>> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do >>>> not >>> get >>>> a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm traffic >>>> is shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc... >>>> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after >>>> you throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument >>>> panel and get additional boxes containing magic smoke. >>>> >>>> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System". >>>>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another >>>>> (new) >>> box >>>> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder >>>> smoke. It will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm. >>>> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke. >>> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS% >>> 20briefing.pdf >>>> >>>> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS. >>>> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to >>>> fork >>> out >>>> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and >>>> want all other manufacturers out of their business. >>>> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it >>>> is >>> too >>>> light (that's why it is great for a glider). >>>> >>>> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to >>> operate >>>> at different frequencies - to work in different countries. Later >>>> Flarm firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and allow >>>> you to take >>> a >>>> flarm from Europe to the US and Australia without any problems. >>>> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change >>> frequencies >>>> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that! >>> Why? >>>> because they can! >>>> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the >>>> millenair website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't wait > for TABS. >>>> >>>> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise the >>>> good 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch >>>> automatically >>> according >>>> where you are. However, I can foresee that being stopped by the >>>> "flarm >>> data >>>> encryption". You will need two powerflarms: One for Europe and the >>>> other for US/Australia. >>>> >>>> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and >>>> just >>> using >>>> it with a sim card from that country.. >>>> >>>> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that >>>> are capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Erich, >>>>> >>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>>>> direction either. Both >>> should >>>>> give relative altitudes though. >>>>> >>>>> OK what is TABS? >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-aga >>> inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>> >>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>> working >>>>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>>> >>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>> a >>> powerFlarm. >>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>> Erich >>>>> >>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>> like >>> a >>>>> joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of >>> direction. >>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>> ? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> >>>>> *Borgelt Instruments* - >>>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 >>>>> * www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: < >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments >>> /20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >>>> ******************************************** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachments >> /20150521/3324870f/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 20 >> ******************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 > ******************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22 > ******************************************** _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
