Casey, It's not Flarm at fault for breaching privacy, is flarmnet - these guys need to be shut down if there is an issue with privacy.
The statement that encryption was a result of privacy concerns is the bit that doesn't gel. And yes Flarm did make a statement way back before they made lots of money that the RF protocol would be made freely available. But in this world of every increasing numbers of aviation users including now the likes of UAV's that we all talk the same talk when it comes to CAS and follow standards that are created to protect the end user (in theory) and allow many manufacturers to offer a device - not just one. Google intend making thousands of low cost, TABS devices which talk to GA, commercial aircraft, UAV's, ultralights, gliders, balloons - anyone who has a mode S, or Mode S with ADS-B out, or ADS-B out or TABS! Nigel -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 2:19 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23 Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to [email protected] To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to [email protected] You can reach the person managing the list at [email protected] When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22 (Casey Jay Lewis) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:18:45 +0800 From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22 To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Gents, are you forgetting flarmnet.org that links the device to an individual? Full name, home club, etc iPhone Transmission > On 21 May, 2015, at 12:14, [email protected] wrote: > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 (Nigel Andrews) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:14:23 +1000 > From: "Nigel Andrews" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > > <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKHkN31zghRKpfIymq++SLjCgAAAEAAAAAO5V/cTJT1Jqg > 9X7v62A/[email protected]> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Yep, thanks Al I think you covered it - privacy laws usually are aimed > at those who rebroadcast information without the owner's permission, > not the manufacturer who made the phone or two way radio that was > intercepted! There are thousands of ADS-B aircraft out there > broadcasting their make, callsign, position, speed, altitude - why > isn't king or garmin getting sued over privacy laws. > > Nigel > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 2:07 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than > "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Al Borowski) > 2. flarmin' hell (Casey Jay Lewis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:26:54 +1000 > From: Al Borowski <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 > To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > > <cacsx6xcfn79fab2ugawcgox+gv8agdwtudeaofsqzfe4cuw...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> On 21/05/2015, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: >> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but >> they've clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to >> force upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated >> benefits that entails. Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment >> will keep working just as it always has. > > Unless I'm missing something obvious - if the protocol changes, but > some devices cannot be upgraded, those devices will become blind to > other gliders. Is this incorrect? > > If you have a fleet of gliders and half suddenly become invisible due > to time-bombed firmware, safety is lost. > >> Other >> entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal information >> in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't give two hoots >> if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, FlightAware, >> FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the bejesus out of >> PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article in Gliding >> International covered > this. > > I'm not a subscriber but I'd love to read that article. Is it illegal > for me to "track" a glider's position by listening to radio calls via > an internet stream? If so, surely the fault lies with me, not the > manufacturer of the radio gear. If someone uses a crowbar to break > into my house, I can't sue the manufacturer of the crowbar... > >> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision >> avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of >> safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. > > Frankly, I'm not sure the problem is sharing the "collision avoidance > technology" as if it is a clever secret no-one has figured out. I'd be > surprised if multiple people on this list couldn't come up with a > FLARM alternative, including designing the PCBs, programming the > firmware & making a reliable radio link. The problem is getting enough > people to agree on a standard so all gliders can see each other. > > The motivation behind changing the protocol appears to be to > deliberate obfuscate the signal that says "Hi Everyone, I am a glider > at position X" to prevent third parties building compatible systems. > Imagine if aircraft radios worked like this - Microair owners could > only talk to other Microair owners etc. > > I could have sworn I remember Flarm saying the protocol would be an > "Open Protocol in the interests of Safety" back when it was being introduced. > > Cheers, > > Al > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:06:30 +0800 > From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> > Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell > To: "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I certainly share your desire to see those traffic types with greater > resolution! > > Unfortunately, TABS is not designed to do that. It's a way of making 'us' > visible to 'them'. As we pretty much all carry one or more accurate > but not certified GPS sources already, it's purpose (FAA TSO-C199) is > to make gliders and other exempted aircraft such as balloons visible, > making use of these non-TSO'd GPS's for collision avoidance purposes. > It's basically a cost effective way to turn us into non-certified ADS-B out aircraft. > > ATC still won't use the ADS-B data due to signal integrity & fault > monitoring reasons but it permits our current GPS sources (PowerFLARM, > LX, CN etc) to be used for collision avoidance. > > In my case, I have an ADS-B Out capable, Mode S XPDR but no legal > position information to feed it. If TABS is adopted, it would let me > output my PF/LX GPS position to my XPDR, making me visible to systems > such as TCAS in powered aircraft. But....it still doesn't add any > visibility of powered aircraft to us. If they aren't ADS-B Out > equipped, the best we can get is a range ring on PowerFLARM. Of > course, this assumes you haven't spent 10's of thousands on TCAS for > your sailplane. Who would?!? I guess we can only hope that AsA/CASA > return to mandated ADS-B out for all powered aircraft, as the USA has done with a 2020 deadline. > > Case > > iPad transmission > >>> On 21 May 2015, at 11:19, [email protected] >> wrote: >> >> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Casey Jay Lewis) 2. >> Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Erich Wittstock) >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:51:09 +0800 >> From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >> To: "[email protected]" >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye >> out! :P >> >> It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its > capabilities/requirements. >> >> You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and > that's just not true. >> >> With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude >> information > for: >> - PowerFLARM traffic >> - OzFLARM traffic >> - ADS-B equipped traffic >> You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators' >> >> You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down >> to a > mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders. >> >> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but >> they've > clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to force > upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated benefits that > entails. Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working > just as it always has. >> >> PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only >> are the > frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but the FCC > also mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No conspiracy theory there. >> >> Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue. > Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal > information in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't > give two hoots if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, > FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the > bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article in Gliding International covered this. >> >> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision > avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of > safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. So long as they keep > their word on this, I have no problem with the path they've taken. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Casey >> PowerFLARM user since 2012 >> >> iPad transmission >> >>> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, [email protected] > wrote: >>> >>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> [email protected] >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike >>> Borgelt) 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> - >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000 >>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>> <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>> >>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>> >>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a > powerFlarm. >>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>> Erich >>> >>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>> indication of > direction. >>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen >>> t s/20150521/01668b35/attachment.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000 >>> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: [email protected] >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >>> >>> As far as I have understood and experienced: >>> >>> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have >>> two gliders to confirm) but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work >>> in Australia (we can confirm that also :-( ). >>> >>> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian >>> frequency when they find themselves in Australia. >>> We also have experienced this. >>> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically. >>> >>> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have >>> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the WGC >>> in Benalla. >>> >>> Grietje >>> >>>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote: >>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-a >>>> g ainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>> a powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>> indication of direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen >>> t s/20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000 >>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>> <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >>> >>> Erich, >>> >>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. >>> >>> OK what is TABS? >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>>> <https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition- >>>> a >>>> gainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol>https:/ >>>> gainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol>/ >>>> www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-f >>>> l arm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>> a powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>> indication of direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> ? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring >>> instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com >>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen >>> t s/20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 4 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000 >>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>> <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> Hi Mike (et al), >>> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system. >>> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm - >>> it still is not the best solution. Just more expensive. >>> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do >>> not get a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm >>> traffic is shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc... >>> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after >>> you throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument >>> panel and get additional boxes containing magic smoke. >>> >>> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System". >>>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another >>>> (new) box >>> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder >>> smoke. It will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm. >>> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke. >>> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS >>> % >>> 20briefing.pdf >>> >>> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS. >>> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to >>> fork out >>> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and >>> want all other manufacturers out of their business. >>> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it >>> is too light (that's why it is great for a glider). >>> >>> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to >>> operate at different frequencies - to work in different countries. >>> Later Flarm firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and >>> allow you to take a flarm from Europe to the US and Australia >>> without any > problems. >>> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change >>> frequencies >>> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that! > Why? >>> because they can! >>> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the >>> millenair website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't >>> wait > for TABS. >>> >>> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise the >>> good 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch >>> automatically according where you are. However, I can foresee that >>> being stopped by the "flarm data encryption". You will need two >>> powerflarms: One for Europe and the other for US/Australia. >>> >>> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and >>> just using it with a sim card from that country.. >>> >>> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that >>> are capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm. >>> Erich >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Erich, >>>> >>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. >>>> >>>> OK what is TABS? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-a >>>> g ainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>> a > powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>> indication of > direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> ? >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> *Borgelt Instruments* - >>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 >>>> * www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen >>> t s/20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >>> ******************************************** >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:14:34 +1000 >> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: >> >> <caph3infsfuvpcpgv8efhqxyfcm0fqmx+a1yk3nqxuhy9hvr...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> So far it's a hit by a "spud gun". You don't even wanna know that the >> shot gun impact would look like.. ;-) >> >> I am not worried about other gliders - they will be flarm equipped. I >> do worry about GA traffic. Because any "near-miss" will compromise >> our freedom of (gliding) ability. >> PowerFlarm will tell me: there is a transponder signal in a "near >> enough is good enough" manner (no punt intended). >> >> OK, taken from the powerflarm manual: >> *Mode C signals only carry altitude information, but no >> identification. To avoid that an the aircraft?s own Mode C >> transponder is constantly displayed as a very close target, >> PowerFLARM identifies the strongest Mode C signal and suppresses it.* >> (no surprise here - that's why mode-s was implemented) >> >> >> >> >> >> *ADS-B alertsADS-B OUT broadcasts have originally been designed for >> ground- based surveillance and collision avoidance by Air Traffic >> Control. The use of ADS-B for airborne collision alerts is often >> limited by factors such as:? Absence of horizontal and/or vertical >> speed data? Absence of GPS altitude data? Erroneous transmission of > position and/or velocity data? >> Time lag in position data* >> ...bla bla bla... and then this: >> *However, ADS-B does not provide sufficiently precise data to warn >> about glider traffic with its frequent altitude changes and steep >> turns.* *To ensure best alert quality, PowerFLARM therefore does not >> use ADS-B data to compute alerts for glider targets. Instead, it will >> exclusively rely on the target's much more precise FLARM data.* >> >> I want to be able to see the Flying Doctor and the >> Mining-fly-in-fly-out plane just like a flarm target. And that is not >> the case with a powerFlarm unless these planes are flarm equipped. >> All you get is: "incoming" - no direction. >> >> PowerFlarm does not display transponder traffic sufficiently. >> >> I am waiting for TABS and am happy to pay $1500 for something that >> actually works. >> Erich >> >> >> >>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye >>> out! :P >>> >>> It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its >>> capabilities/requirements. >>> >>> You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and >>> that's just not true. >>> >>> With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude >>> information >>> for: >>> - PowerFLARM traffic >>> - OzFLARM traffic >>> - ADS-B equipped traffic >>> You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators' >>> >>> You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down >>> to a mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders. >>> >>> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but >>> they've clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to >>> force upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated >>> benefits > that entails. >>> Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working just as >>> it always has. >>> >>> PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only >>> are the frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but >>> the FCC also mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No >>> conspiracy > theory there. >>> >>> Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue. >>> Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal >>> information in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't >>> give two hoots if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, >>> FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the >>> bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article >>> in > Gliding International covered this. >>> >>> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their >>> collision avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the >>> interests of safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. So long >>> as they keep their word on this, I have no problem with the path they've taken. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Casey >>> PowerFLARM user since 2012 >>> >>> iPad transmission >>> >>>>> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, >>>>> [email protected] >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>>> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike >>>> Borgelt) 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> - >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000 >>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com >>>> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>> working >>>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>> a >>> powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>> indication of >>> direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: < >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>> s >>> /20150521/01668b35/attachment.html >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000 >>>> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >>>> >>>> As far as I have understood and experienced: >>>> >>>> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have >>>> two gliders to confirm) but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work >>>> in Australia (we can confirm that also :-( ). >>>> >>>> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian >>>> frequency when they find themselves in Australia. >>>> We also have experienced this. >>>> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically. >>>> >>>> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have >>>> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the >>>> WGC in Benalla. >>>> >>>> Grietje >>>> >>>>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote: >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>> >>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>>> >>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some >>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>> a powerFlarm. >>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>> Erich >>>>> >>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>>> indication of direction. >>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: < >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>> s >>> /20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000 >>>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >>>> >>>> Erich, >>>> >>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. >>>> >>>> OK what is TABS? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>>>> < >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>> >>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly >>> $2500! >>>>> >>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some >>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation >>> Zeus.. >>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>> a powerFlarm. >>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>> Erich >>>>> >>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>>> indication of direction. >>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>> ? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring >>>> instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: < >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>> s >>> /20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000 >>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com >>>> > >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> Hi Mike (et al), >>>> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system. >>>> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm >>>> - it still is not the best solution. Just more expensive. >>>> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do >>>> not >>> get >>>> a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm traffic >>>> is shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc... >>>> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after >>>> you throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument >>>> panel and get additional boxes containing magic smoke. >>>> >>>> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System". >>>>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another >>>>> (new) >>> box >>>> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder >>>> smoke. It will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm. >>>> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke. >>> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS >>> % >>> 20briefing.pdf >>>> >>>> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS. >>>> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to >>>> fork >>> out >>>> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and >>>> want all other manufacturers out of their business. >>>> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it >>>> is >>> too >>>> light (that's why it is great for a glider). >>>> >>>> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to >>> operate >>>> at different frequencies - to work in different countries. Later >>>> Flarm firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and allow >>>> you to take >>> a >>>> flarm from Europe to the US and Australia without any problems. >>>> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change >>> frequencies >>>> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that! >>> Why? >>>> because they can! >>>> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the >>>> millenair website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't >>>> wait > for TABS. >>>> >>>> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise >>>> the good 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch >>>> automatically >>> according >>>> where you are. However, I can foresee that being stopped by the >>>> "flarm >>> data >>>> encryption". You will need two powerflarms: One for Europe and the >>>> other for US/Australia. >>>> >>>> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and >>>> just >>> using >>>> it with a sim card from that country.. >>>> >>>> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that >>>> are capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Erich, >>>>> >>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>>>> direction either. Both >>> should >>>>> give relative altitudes though. >>>>> >>>>> OK what is TABS? >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>> >>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>> working >>>>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>>> >>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some >>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>> a >>> powerFlarm. >>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>> Erich >>>>> >>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>> like >>> a >>>>> joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of >>> direction. >>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>> ? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> >>>>> *Borgelt Instruments* - >>>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since >>>>> 1978 >>>>> * www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: < >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>> s >>> /20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >>>> ******************************************** >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >> scrubbed... >> URL: >> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >> s >> /20150521/3324870f/attachment.html> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 20 >> ******************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 > ******************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22 > ******************************************** ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23 ******************************************** _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
