I am interested to see if Google make it open such that Flarm like "collisions" algorithms can be implemented, of course full compatibility/interoperability and operational integrity has to be guaranteed/underwritten to ensure safety.
Do you put your life in the hands of nebulous code hackers or a company that has value that you or others might be able to claim on which in turn drives them to provide defensible products? > On 21 May 2015, at 2:39 pm, [email protected] wrote: > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23 (Nigel Andrews) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:38:51 +1000 > From: "Nigel Andrews" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23 > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: > > <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKHkN31zghRKpfIymq++SLjCgAAAEAAAAMG+araISKRGmCY3TRBmgZUBAAAAAA==@andrewselectronic.com.au> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Casey, > > It's not Flarm at fault for breaching privacy, is flarmnet - these guys need > to be shut down if there is an issue with privacy. > > The statement that encryption was a result of privacy concerns is the bit > that doesn't gel. > > And yes Flarm did make a statement way back before they made lots of money > that the RF protocol would be made freely available. > > But in this world of every increasing numbers of aviation users including > now the likes of UAV's that we all talk the same talk when it comes to CAS > and follow standards that are created to protect the end user (in theory) > and allow many manufacturers to offer a device - not just one. > > Google intend making thousands of low cost, TABS devices which talk to GA, > commercial aircraft, UAV's, ultralights, gliders, balloons - anyone who has > a mode S, or Mode S with ADS-B out, or ADS-B out or TABS! > > Nigel > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 2:19 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23 > > Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22 (Casey Jay Lewis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:18:45 +0800 > From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22 > To: "[email protected]" > <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Gents, are you forgetting flarmnet.org that links the device to an > individual? Full name, home club, etc > > iPhone Transmission > >>> On 21 May, 2015, at 12:14, [email protected] >> wrote: >> >> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 (Nigel Andrews) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:14:23 +1000 >> From: "Nigel Andrews" <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 >> To: <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: >> >> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKHkN31zghRKpfIymq++SLjCgAAAEAAAAAO5V/cTJT1Jqg >> 9X7v62A/[email protected]> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Yep, thanks Al I think you covered it - privacy laws usually are aimed >> at those who rebroadcast information without the owner's permission, >> not the manufacturer who made the phone or two way radio that was >> intercepted! There are thousands of ADS-B aircraft out there >> broadcasting their make, callsign, position, speed, altitude - why >> isn't king or garmin getting sued over privacy laws. >> >> Nigel >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of >> [email protected] >> Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 2:07 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 >> >> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >> [email protected] >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than >> "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Al Borowski) >> 2. flarmin' hell (Casey Jay Lewis) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:26:54 +1000 >> From: Al Borowski <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: >> >> <cacsx6xcfn79fab2ugawcgox+gv8agdwtudeaofsqzfe4cuw...@mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>> On 21/05/2015, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: >>> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but >>> they've clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to >>> force upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated >>> benefits that entails. Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment >>> will keep working just as it always has. >> >> Unless I'm missing something obvious - if the protocol changes, but >> some devices cannot be upgraded, those devices will become blind to >> other gliders. Is this incorrect? >> >> If you have a fleet of gliders and half suddenly become invisible due >> to time-bombed firmware, safety is lost. >> >>> Other >>> entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal information >>> in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't give two hoots >>> if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, FlightAware, >>> FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the bejesus out of >>> PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article in Gliding >>> International covered >> this. >> >> I'm not a subscriber but I'd love to read that article. Is it illegal >> for me to "track" a glider's position by listening to radio calls via >> an internet stream? If so, surely the fault lies with me, not the >> manufacturer of the radio gear. If someone uses a crowbar to break >> into my house, I can't sue the manufacturer of the crowbar... >> >>> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision >>> avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of >>> safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. >> >> Frankly, I'm not sure the problem is sharing the "collision avoidance >> technology" as if it is a clever secret no-one has figured out. I'd be >> surprised if multiple people on this list couldn't come up with a >> FLARM alternative, including designing the PCBs, programming the >> firmware & making a reliable radio link. The problem is getting enough >> people to agree on a standard so all gliders can see each other. >> >> The motivation behind changing the protocol appears to be to >> deliberate obfuscate the signal that says "Hi Everyone, I am a glider >> at position X" to prevent third parties building compatible systems. >> Imagine if aircraft radios worked like this - Microair owners could >> only talk to other Microair owners etc. >> >> I could have sworn I remember Flarm saying the protocol would be an >> "Open Protocol in the interests of Safety" back when it was being > introduced. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Al >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:06:30 +0800 >> From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> >> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >> To: "[email protected]" >> <[email protected]> >> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> I certainly share your desire to see those traffic types with greater >> resolution! >> >> Unfortunately, TABS is not designed to do that. It's a way of making 'us' >> visible to 'them'. As we pretty much all carry one or more accurate >> but not certified GPS sources already, it's purpose (FAA TSO-C199) is >> to make gliders and other exempted aircraft such as balloons visible, >> making use of these non-TSO'd GPS's for collision avoidance purposes. >> It's basically a cost effective way to turn us into non-certified ADS-B > out aircraft. >> >> ATC still won't use the ADS-B data due to signal integrity & fault >> monitoring reasons but it permits our current GPS sources (PowerFLARM, >> LX, CN etc) to be used for collision avoidance. >> >> In my case, I have an ADS-B Out capable, Mode S XPDR but no legal >> position information to feed it. If TABS is adopted, it would let me >> output my PF/LX GPS position to my XPDR, making me visible to systems >> such as TCAS in powered aircraft. But....it still doesn't add any >> visibility of powered aircraft to us. If they aren't ADS-B Out >> equipped, the best we can get is a range ring on PowerFLARM. Of >> course, this assumes you haven't spent 10's of thousands on TCAS for >> your sailplane. Who would?!? I guess we can only hope that AsA/CASA >> return to mandated ADS-B out for all powered aircraft, as the USA has done > with a 2020 deadline. >> >> Case >> >> iPad transmission >> >>>> On 21 May 2015, at 11:19, [email protected] >>> wrote: >>> >>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>> [email protected] >>> >>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >>> >>> >>> Today's Topics: >>> >>> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Casey Jay Lewis) 2. >>> Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Erich Wittstock) >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> - >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:51:09 +0800 >>> From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >>> To: "[email protected]" >>> <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> >>> Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye >>> out! :P >>> >>> It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its >> capabilities/requirements. >>> >>> You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and >> that's just not true. >>> >>> With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude >>> information >> for: >>> - PowerFLARM traffic >>> - OzFLARM traffic >>> - ADS-B equipped traffic >>> You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators' >>> >>> You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down >>> to a >> mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders. >>> >>> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but >>> they've >> clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to force >> upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated benefits that >> entails. Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working >> just as it always has. >>> >>> PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only >>> are the >> frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but the FCC >> also mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No conspiracy theory > there. >>> >>> Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue. >> Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal >> information in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't >> give two hoots if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, >> FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the >> bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article in > Gliding International covered this. >>> >>> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision >> avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of >> safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. So long as they keep >> their word on this, I have no problem with the path they've taken. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Casey >>> PowerFLARM user since 2012 >>> >>> iPad transmission >>> >>>> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, [email protected] >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >>>> >>>> >>>> Today's Topics: >>>> >>>> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>>> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike >>>> Borgelt) 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>>> >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> - >>>> - >>>> >>>> Message: 1 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000 >>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> >>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>> >>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a >> powerFlarm. >>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>> indication of >> direction. >>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen >>>> t s/20150521/01668b35/attachment.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 2 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000 >>>> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >>>> >>>> As far as I have understood and experienced: >>>> >>>> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have >>>> two gliders to confirm) but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work >>>> in Australia (we can confirm that also :-( ). >>>> >>>> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian >>>> frequency when they find themselves in Australia. >>>> We also have experienced this. >>>> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically. >>>> >>>> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have >>>> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the WGC >>>> in Benalla. >>>> >>>> Grietje >>>> >>>>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote: >>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-a >>>>> g ainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>> >>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>>> >>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>> a powerFlarm. >>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>> Erich >>>>> >>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>>> indication of direction. >>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen >>>> t s/20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 3 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000 >>>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >>>> >>>> Erich, >>>> >>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. >>>> >>>> OK what is TABS? >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>>>> <https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition- >>>>> a >>>>> gainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol>https:/ >>>>> gainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol>/ >>>>> www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-f >>>>> l arm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>> >>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>>> >>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>> a powerFlarm. >>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>> Erich >>>>> >>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>>> indication of direction. >>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>> ? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring >>>> instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen >>>> t s/20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> Message: 4 >>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000 >>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>> <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: >>>> >>>> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> >>>> Hi Mike (et al), >>>> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system. >>>> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm - >>>> it still is not the best solution. Just more expensive. >>>> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do >>>> not get a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm >>>> traffic is shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc... >>>> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after >>>> you throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument >>>> panel and get additional boxes containing magic smoke. >>>> >>>> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System". >>>>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another >>>>> (new) box >>>> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder >>>> smoke. It will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm. >>>> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke. >>>> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS >>>> % >>>> 20briefing.pdf >>>> >>>> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS. >>>> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to >>>> fork out >>>> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and >>>> want all other manufacturers out of their business. >>>> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it >>>> is too light (that's why it is great for a glider). >>>> >>>> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to >>>> operate at different frequencies - to work in different countries. >>>> Later Flarm firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and >>>> allow you to take a flarm from Europe to the US and Australia >>>> without any >> problems. >>>> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change >>>> frequencies >>>> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that! >> Why? >>>> because they can! >>>> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the >>>> millenair website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't >>>> wait >> for TABS. >>>> >>>> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise the >>>> good 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch >>>> automatically according where you are. However, I can foresee that >>>> being stopped by the "flarm data encryption". You will need two >>>> powerflarms: One for Europe and the other for US/Australia. >>>> >>>> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and >>>> just using it with a sim card from that country.. >>>> >>>> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that >>>> are capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm. >>>> Erich >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Erich, >>>>> >>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. >>>>> >>>>> OK what is TABS? >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-a >>>>> g ainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>> >>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>>> >>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>> a >> powerFlarm. >>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>> Erich >>>>> >>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>>> indication of >> direction. >>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>> ? >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> >>>>> *Borgelt Instruments* - >>>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978 >>>>> * www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>> scrubbed... >>>> URL: >>>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen >>>> t s/20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>> >>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >>>> ******************************************** >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:14:34 +1000 >>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>> <[email protected]> >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> <caph3infsfuvpcpgv8efhqxyfcm0fqmx+a1yk3nqxuhy9hvr...@mail.gmail.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>> >>> So far it's a hit by a "spud gun". You don't even wanna know that the >>> shot gun impact would look like.. ;-) >>> >>> I am not worried about other gliders - they will be flarm equipped. I >>> do worry about GA traffic. Because any "near-miss" will compromise >>> our freedom of (gliding) ability. >>> PowerFlarm will tell me: there is a transponder signal in a "near >>> enough is good enough" manner (no punt intended). >>> >>> OK, taken from the powerflarm manual: >>> *Mode C signals only carry altitude information, but no >>> identification. To avoid that an the aircraft?s own Mode C >>> transponder is constantly displayed as a very close target, >>> PowerFLARM identifies the strongest Mode C signal and suppresses it.* >>> (no surprise here - that's why mode-s was implemented) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *ADS-B alertsADS-B OUT broadcasts have originally been designed for >>> ground- based surveillance and collision avoidance by Air Traffic >>> Control. The use of ADS-B for airborne collision alerts is often >>> limited by factors such as:? Absence of horizontal and/or vertical >>> speed data? Absence of GPS altitude data? Erroneous transmission of >> position and/or velocity data? >>> Time lag in position data* >>> ...bla bla bla... and then this: >>> *However, ADS-B does not provide sufficiently precise data to warn >>> about glider traffic with its frequent altitude changes and steep >>> turns.* *To ensure best alert quality, PowerFLARM therefore does not >>> use ADS-B data to compute alerts for glider targets. Instead, it will >>> exclusively rely on the target's much more precise FLARM data.* >>> >>> I want to be able to see the Flying Doctor and the >>> Mining-fly-in-fly-out plane just like a flarm target. And that is not >>> the case with a powerFlarm unless these planes are flarm equipped. >>> All you get is: "incoming" - no direction. >>> >>> PowerFlarm does not display transponder traffic sufficiently. >>> >>> I am waiting for TABS and am happy to pay $1500 for something that >>> actually works. >>> Erich >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye >>>> out! :P >>>> >>>> It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its >>>> capabilities/requirements. >>>> >>>> You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and >>>> that's just not true. >>>> >>>> With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude >>>> information >>>> for: >>>> - PowerFLARM traffic >>>> - OzFLARM traffic >>>> - ADS-B equipped traffic >>>> You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators' >>>> >>>> You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down >>>> to a mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders. >>>> >>>> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but >>>> they've clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to >>>> force upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated >>>> benefits >> that entails. >>>> Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working just as >>>> it always has. >>>> >>>> PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only >>>> are the frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but >>>> the FCC also mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No >>>> conspiracy >> theory there. >>>> >>>> Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue. >>>> Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal >>>> information in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't >>>> give two hoots if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, >>>> FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the >>>> bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article >>>> in >> Gliding International covered this. >>>> >>>> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their >>>> collision avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the >>>> interests of safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. So long >>>> as they keep their word on this, I have no problem with the path they've > taken. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Casey >>>> PowerFLARM user since 2012 >>>> >>>> iPad transmission >>>> >>>>>> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >>>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Today's Topics: >>>>> >>>>> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>>>> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike >>>>> Borgelt) 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> - >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Message: 1 >>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000 >>>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>>>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>> Message-ID: >>>>> >>>>> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>> >>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>> working >>>>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>>> >>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people >>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>> a >>>> powerFlarm. >>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>> Erich >>>>> >>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>>> indication of >>>> direction. >>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>>> scrubbed... >>>>> URL: < >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>>> s >>>> /20150521/01668b35/attachment.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Message: 2 >>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000 >>>>> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >>>>> >>>>> As far as I have understood and experienced: >>>>> >>>>> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have >>>>> two gliders to confirm) but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work >>>>> in Australia (we can confirm that also :-( ). >>>>> >>>>> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian >>>>> frequency when they find themselves in Australia. >>>>> We also have experienced this. >>>>> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically. >>>>> >>>>> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have >>>>> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the >>>>> WGC in Benalla. >>>>> >>>>> Grietje >>>>> >>>>>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote: >>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>>> >>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>>>> >>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some >>>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>>> a powerFlarm. >>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>>> Erich >>>>>> >>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>>>> indication of direction. >>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>>> scrubbed... >>>>> URL: < >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>>> s >>>> /20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Message: 3 >>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000 >>>>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >>>>> >>>>> Erich, >>>>> >>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though. >>>>> >>>>> OK what is TABS? >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>>>>> < >>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>>> >>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly >>>> $2500! >>>>>> >>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some >>>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation >>>> Zeus.. >>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>>> a powerFlarm. >>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>>> Erich >>>>>> >>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no >>>>>> indication of direction. >>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>>> ? >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> >>>>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring >>>>> instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>>> scrubbed... >>>>> URL: < >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>>> s >>>> /20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> Message: 4 >>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000 >>>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell >>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." >>>>> <[email protected]> >>>>> Message-ID: >>>>> >>>>> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com >>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>>> >>>>> Hi Mike (et al), >>>>> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system. >>>>> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm >>>>> - it still is not the best solution. Just more expensive. >>>>> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do >>>>> not >>>> get >>>>> a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm traffic >>>>> is shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc... >>>>> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after >>>>> you throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument >>>>> panel and get additional boxes containing magic smoke. >>>>> >>>>> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System". >>>>>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another >>>>>> (new) >>>> box >>>>> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder >>>>> smoke. It will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm. >>>>> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke. >>>> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS >>>> % >>>> 20briefing.pdf >>>>> >>>>> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS. >>>>> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to >>>>> fork >>>> out >>>>> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and >>>>> want all other manufacturers out of their business. >>>>> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it >>>>> is >>>> too >>>>> light (that's why it is great for a glider). >>>>> >>>>> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to >>>> operate >>>>> at different frequencies - to work in different countries. Later >>>>> Flarm firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and allow >>>>> you to take >>>> a >>>>> flarm from Europe to the US and Australia without any problems. >>>>> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change >>>> frequencies >>>>> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that! >>>> Why? >>>>> because they can! >>>>> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the >>>>> millenair website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't >>>>> wait >> for TABS. >>>>> >>>>> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise >>>>> the good 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch >>>>> automatically >>>> according >>>>> where you are. However, I can foresee that being stopped by the >>>>> "flarm >>>> data >>>>> encryption". You will need two powerflarms: One for Europe and the >>>>> other for US/Australia. >>>>> >>>>> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and >>>>> just >>>> using >>>>> it with a sim card from that country.. >>>>> >>>>> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that >>>>> are capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm. >>>>> Erich >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Erich, >>>>>> >>>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be >>>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction >>>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give >>>>>> direction either. Both >>>> should >>>>>> give relative altitudes though. >>>>>> >>>>>> OK what is TABS? >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote: >>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag >>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol >>>>>> >>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong: >>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition. >>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly >>>> working >>>>>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500! >>>>>> >>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some >>>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus.. >>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not >>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy >>>>>> a >>>> powerFlarm. >>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you. >>>>>> Erich >>>>>> >>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit >>>>>> like >>>> a >>>>>> joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of >>>> direction. >>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable. >>>>>> ? >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>>> >>>>>> *Borgelt Instruments* - >>>>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since >>>>>> 1978 >>>>>> * www.borgeltinstruments.com >>>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 >>>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 >>>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>>>> scrubbed... >>>>> URL: < >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>>> s >>>> /20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>>>> >>>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 >>>>> ******************************************** >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> To check or change subscription details, visit: >>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was >>> scrubbed... >>> URL: >>> <http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment >>> s >>> /20150521/3324870f/attachment.html> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Aus-soaring mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >>> >>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 20 >>> ******************************************** >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 >> ******************************************** >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Aus-soaring mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring >> >> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22 >> ******************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23 > ******************************************** > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Aus-soaring mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring > > End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 24 > ******************************************** _______________________________________________ Aus-soaring mailing list [email protected] To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
