Can I assume at this point in time that there are no manufacturers
putting gliding "use case specific collision algorithms" like we
have in Flarm into these GA centric options?
> On 21 May 2015, at 3:18 pm,
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
> [email protected]
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> [email protected]
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> [email protected]
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Google and TABS (Nigel Andrews)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 15:13:04 +1000
> From: "Nigel Andrews" <[email protected]>
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] Google and TABS
> To: <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
>
<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKHkN31zghRKpfIymq++SLjCgAAAEAAAAJBsAifVviFJnVKi1d4SAUoBAAAAAA==@andrewselectronic.com.au>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Richard, google are not designing their own system - they are following the
> TSO C199 which is put out by the FAA.
>
> Please read this and you will understand what aviation
manufacturers have to
> endure - painful but it ensures we are all on the same playing
field when it
> comes to compatibility.
>
> As per my previous posts, TABS was put out because of a need to have low
> cost CAS systems.
>
> Cheers
>
> Nigel
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
> [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 2:56 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 26
>
> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
> [email protected]
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> [email protected]
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> [email protected]
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 24 (Richard Frawley)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:55:53 +1000
> From: Richard Frawley <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 24
> To: "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> I am interested to see if Google make it open such that Flarm like
> "collisions" algorithms can be implemented, of course full
> compatibility/interoperability and operational integrity has to be
> guaranteed/underwritten to ensure safety.
>
> Do you put your life in the hands of nebulous code hackers or a
company that
> has value that you or others might be able to claim on which in turn drives
> them to provide defensible products?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>> On 21 May 2015, at 2:39 pm, [email protected]
>> wrote:
>>
>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>> [email protected]
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> [email protected]
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> [email protected]
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23 (Nigel Andrews)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:38:51 +1000
>> From: "Nigel Andrews" <[email protected]>
>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Message-ID:
>
<!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKHkN31zghRKpfIymq++SLjCgAAAEAAAAMG+araISKRGmCY3TRBm
> [email protected]>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Casey,
>>
>> It's not Flarm at fault for breaching privacy, is flarmnet - these guys
> need
>> to be shut down if there is an issue with privacy.
>>
>> The statement that encryption was a result of privacy concerns is the bit
>> that doesn't gel.
>>
>> And yes Flarm did make a statement way back before they made lots of money
>> that the RF protocol would be made freely available.
>>
>> But in this world of every increasing numbers of aviation users including
>> now the likes of UAV's that we all talk the same talk when it comes to CAS
>> and follow standards that are created to protect the end user (in theory)
>> and allow many manufacturers to offer a device - not just one.
>>
>> Google intend making thousands of low cost, TABS devices which talk to GA,
>> commercial aircraft, UAV's, ultralights, gliders, balloons - anyone who
> has
>> a mode S, or Mode S with ADS-B out, or ADS-B out or TABS!
>>
>> Nigel
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected]
>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
>> [email protected]
>> Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 2:19 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23
>>
>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>> [email protected]
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> [email protected]
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> [email protected]
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
>> "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22 (Casey Jay Lewis)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:18:45 +0800
>> From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]>
>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22
>> To: "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]>
>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Gents, are you forgetting flarmnet.org that links the device to an
>> individual? Full name, home club, etc
>>
>> iPhone Transmission
>>
>>>> On 21 May, 2015, at 12:14, [email protected]
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>>> [email protected]
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> [email protected]
>>>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> [email protected]
>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21 (Nigel Andrews)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:14:23 +1000
>>> From: "Nigel Andrews" <[email protected]>
>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21
>>> To: <[email protected]>
>>> Message-ID:
>>>
>>> <!&!AAAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAKHkN31zghRKpfIymq++SLjCgAAAEAAAAAO5V/cTJT1Jqg
>>> 9X7v62A/[email protected]>
>>>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> Yep, thanks Al I think you covered it - privacy laws usually are aimed
>>> at those who rebroadcast information without the owner's permission,
>>> not the manufacturer who made the phone or two way radio that was
>>> intercepted! There are thousands of ADS-B aircraft out there
>>> broadcasting their make, callsign, position, speed, altitude - why
>>> isn't king or garmin getting sued over privacy laws.
>>>
>>> Nigel
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [email protected]
>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of
>>> [email protected]
>>> Sent: Thursday, 21 May 2015 2:07 PM
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21
>>>
>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>>> [email protected]
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> [email protected]
>>>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> [email protected]
>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than
>>> "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Al Borowski)
>>> 2. flarmin' hell (Casey Jay Lewis)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:26:54 +1000
>>> From: Al Borowski <[email protected]>
>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18
>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>>> <[email protected]>
>>> Message-ID:
>>>
>>> <cacsx6xcfn79fab2ugawcgox+gv8agdwtudeaofsqzfe4cuw...@mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>>
>>>> On 21/05/2015, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but
>>>> they've clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to
>>>> force upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated
>>>> benefits that entails. Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment
>>>> will keep working just as it always has.
>>>
>>> Unless I'm missing something obvious - if the protocol changes, but
>>> some devices cannot be upgraded, those devices will become blind to
>>> other gliders. Is this incorrect?
>>>
>>> If you have a fleet of gliders and half suddenly become invisible due
>>> to time-bombed firmware, safety is lost.
>>>
>>>> Other
>>>> entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal information
>>>> in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't give two hoots
>>>> if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN, FlightAware,
>>>> FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the bejesus out of
>>>> PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article in Gliding
>>>> International covered
>>> this.
>>>
>>> I'm not a subscriber but I'd love to read that article. Is it illegal
>>> for me to "track" a glider's position by listening to radio calls via
>>> an internet stream? If so, surely the fault lies with me, not the
>>> manufacturer of the radio gear. If someone uses a crowbar to break
>>> into my house, I can't sue the manufacturer of the crowbar...
>>>
>>>> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision
>>>> avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of
>>>> safety, once the privacy issue is addressed.
>>>
>>> Frankly, I'm not sure the problem is sharing the "collision avoidance
>>> technology" as if it is a clever secret no-one has figured out. I'd be
>>> surprised if multiple people on this list couldn't come up with a
>>> FLARM alternative, including designing the PCBs, programming the
>>> firmware & making a reliable radio link. The problem is getting enough
>>> people to agree on a standard so all gliders can see each other.
>>>
>>> The motivation behind changing the protocol appears to be to
>>> deliberate obfuscate the signal that says "Hi Everyone, I am a glider
>>> at position X" to prevent third parties building compatible systems.
>>> Imagine if aircraft radios worked like this - Microair owners could
>>> only talk to other Microair owners etc.
>>>
>>> I could have sworn I remember Flarm saying the protocol would be an
>>> "Open Protocol in the interests of Safety" back when it was being
>> introduced.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Al
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:06:30 +0800
>>> From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]>
>>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell
>>> To: "[email protected]"
>>> <[email protected]>
>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>
>>> I certainly share your desire to see those traffic types with greater
>>> resolution!
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, TABS is not designed to do that. It's a way of making 'us'
>>> visible to 'them'. As we pretty much all carry one or more accurate
>>> but not certified GPS sources already, it's purpose (FAA TSO-C199) is
>>> to make gliders and other exempted aircraft such as balloons visible,
>>> making use of these non-TSO'd GPS's for collision avoidance purposes.
>>> It's basically a cost effective way to turn us into non-certified ADS-B
>> out aircraft.
>>>
>>> ATC still won't use the ADS-B data due to signal integrity & fault
>>> monitoring reasons but it permits our current GPS sources (PowerFLARM,
>>> LX, CN etc) to be used for collision avoidance.
>>>
>>> In my case, I have an ADS-B Out capable, Mode S XPDR but no legal
>>> position information to feed it. If TABS is adopted, it would let me
>>> output my PF/LX GPS position to my XPDR, making me visible to systems
>>> such as TCAS in powered aircraft. But....it still doesn't add any
>>> visibility of powered aircraft to us. If they aren't ADS-B Out
>>> equipped, the best we can get is a range ring on PowerFLARM. Of
>>> course, this assumes you haven't spent 10's of thousands on TCAS for
>>> your sailplane. Who would?!? I guess we can only hope that AsA/CASA
>>> return to mandated ADS-B out for all powered aircraft, as the USA has
> done
>> with a 2020 deadline.
>>>
>>> Case
>>>
>>> iPad transmission
>>>
>>>>> On 21 May 2015, at 11:19, [email protected]
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>>>> [email protected]
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>> [email protected]
>>>>
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> [email protected]
>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Casey Jay Lewis) 2.
>>>> Re: Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18 (Erich Wittstock)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:51:09 +0800
>>>> From: Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18
>>>> To: "[email protected]"
>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>>
>>>> Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye
>>>> out! :P
>>>>
>>>> It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its
>>> capabilities/requirements.
>>>>
>>>> You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and
>>> that's just not true.
>>>>
>>>> With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude
>>>> information
>>> for:
>>>> - PowerFLARM traffic
>>>> - OzFLARM traffic
>>>> - ADS-B equipped traffic
>>>> You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators'
>>>>
>>>> You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down
>>>> to a
>>> mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders.
>>>>
>>>> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but
>>>> they've
>>> clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to force
>>> upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated benefits that
>>> entails. Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working
>>> just as it always has.
>>>>
>>>> PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only
>>>> are the
>>> frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but the FCC
>>> also mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No conspiracy theory
>> there.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue.
>>> Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal
>>> information in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't
>>> give two hoots if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN,
>>> FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the
>>> bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article in
>> Gliding International covered this.
>>>>
>>>> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their collision
>>> avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the interests of
>>> safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. So long as they keep
>>> their word on this, I have no problem with the path they've taken.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Casey
>>>> PowerFLARM user since 2012
>>>>
>>>> iPad transmission
>>>>
>>>>> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07, [email protected]
>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock)
>>>>> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike
>>>>> Borgelt) 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> -
>>>>> -
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000
>>>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]>
>>>>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell
>>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>
>>>>> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag
>>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol
>>>>>
>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong:
>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition.
>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly
>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500!
>>>>>
>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people
>>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus..
>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not
>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy a
>>> powerFlarm.
>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you.
>>>>> Erich
>>>>>
>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit
>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no
>>>>> indication of
>>> direction.
>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable.
>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>>>> scrubbed...
>>>>> URL:
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000
>>>>> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell
>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I have understood and experienced:
>>>>>
>>>>> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have
>>>>> two gliders to confirm) but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work
>>>>> in Australia (we can confirm that also :-( ).
>>>>>
>>>>> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian
>>>>> frequency when they find themselves in Australia.
>>>>> We also have experienced this.
>>>>> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have
>>>>> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the WGC
>>>>> in Benalla.
>>>>>
>>>>> Grietje
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote:
>>>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-a
>>>>>> g ainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong:
>>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition.
>>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly
>>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people
>>>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus..
>>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not
>>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy
>>>>>> a powerFlarm.
>>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you.
>>>>>> Erich
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit
>>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no
>>>>>> indication of direction.
>>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>>
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>>>>> scrubbed...
>>>>> URL:
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000
>>>>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell
>>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>>>>
>>>>> Erich,
>>>>>
>>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be
>>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction
>>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give
>>>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK what is TABS?
>>>>>
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote:
>>>>>>
<https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition->>>>>> a
>>>>>> gainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol>https:/
>>>>>> gainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol>/
>>>>>> www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-against-f
>>>>>> l arm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong:
>>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition.
>>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly
>>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people
>>>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus..
>>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not
>>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy
>>>>>> a powerFlarm.
>>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you.
>>>>>> Erich
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit
>>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no
>>>>>> indication of direction.
>>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable.
>>>>>> ?
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>>
>>>>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring
>>>>> instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com
>>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
>>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784
>>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>>>> scrubbed...
>>>>> URL:
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000
>>>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell
>>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>
>>>>> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mike (et al),
>>>>> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system.
>>>>> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm -
>>>>> it still is not the best solution. Just more expensive.
>>>>> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do
>>>>> not get a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm
>>>>> traffic is shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc...
>>>>> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after
>>>>> you throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument
>>>>> panel and get additional boxes containing magic smoke.
>>>>>
>>>>> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System".
>>>>>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another
>>>>>> (new) box
>>>>> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder
>>>>> smoke. It will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm.
>>>>> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke.
>>>>> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS
>>>>> %
>>>>> 20briefing.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS.
>>>>> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to
>>>>> fork out
>>>>> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and
>>>>> want all other manufacturers out of their business.
>>>>> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it
>>>>> is too light (that's why it is great for a glider).
>>>>>
>>>>> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to
>>>>> operate at different frequencies - to work in different countries.
>>>>> Later Flarm firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and
>>>>> allow you to take a flarm from Europe to the US and Australia
>>>>> without any
>>> problems.
>>>>> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change
>>>>> frequencies
>>>>> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that!
>>> Why?
>>>>> because they can!
>>>>> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the
>>>>> millenair website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't
>>>>> wait
>>> for TABS.
>>>>>
>>>>> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise the
>>>>> good 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch
>>>>> automatically according where you are. However, I can foresee that
>>>>> being stopped by the "flarm data encryption". You will need two
>>>>> powerflarms: One for Europe and the other for US/Australia.
>>>>>
>>>>> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and
>>>>> just using it with a sim card from that country..
>>>>>
>>>>> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that
>>>>> are capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm.
>>>>> Erich
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt <
>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Erich,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be
>>>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction
>>>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give
>>>>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK what is TABS?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-a
>>>>>> g ainst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong:
>>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition.
>>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly
>>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people
>>>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus..
>>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not
>>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy
>>>>>> a
>>> powerFlarm.
>>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you.
>>>>>> Erich
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit
>>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no
>>>>>> indication of
>>> direction.
>>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable.
>>>>>> ?
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Borgelt Instruments* -
>>>>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since 1978
>>>>>> * www.borgeltinstruments.com
>>>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
>>>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784
>>>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>>>> scrubbed...
>>>>> URL:
>>>>>
<http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachmen>>>>>
t s/20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>>
>>>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18
>>>>> ********************************************
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:14:34 +1000
>>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18
>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>
>>>> <caph3infsfuvpcpgv8efhqxyfcm0fqmx+a1yk3nqxuhy9hvr...@mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> So far it's a hit by a "spud gun". You don't even wanna know that the
>>>> shot gun impact would look like.. ;-)
>>>>
>>>> I am not worried about other gliders - they will be flarm equipped. I
>>>> do worry about GA traffic. Because any "near-miss" will compromise
>>>> our freedom of (gliding) ability.
>>>> PowerFlarm will tell me: there is a transponder signal in a "near
>>>> enough is good enough" manner (no punt intended).
>>>>
>>>> OK, taken from the powerflarm manual:
>>>> *Mode C signals only carry altitude information, but no
>>>> identification. To avoid that an the aircraft?s own Mode C
>>>> transponder is constantly displayed as a very close target,
>>>> PowerFLARM identifies the strongest Mode C signal and suppresses it.*
>>>> (no surprise here - that's why mode-s was implemented)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *ADS-B alertsADS-B OUT broadcasts have originally been designed for
>>>> ground- based surveillance and collision avoidance by Air Traffic
>>>> Control. The use of ADS-B for airborne collision alerts is often
>>>> limited by factors such as:? Absence of horizontal and/or vertical
>>>> speed data? Absence of GPS altitude data? Erroneous transmission of
>>> position and/or velocity data?
>>>> Time lag in position data*
>>>> ...bla bla bla... and then this:
>>>> *However, ADS-B does not provide sufficiently precise data to warn
>>>> about glider traffic with its frequent altitude changes and steep
>>>> turns.* *To ensure best alert quality, PowerFLARM therefore does not
>>>> use ADS-B data to compute alerts for glider targets. Instead, it will
>>>> exclusively rely on the target's much more precise FLARM data.*
>>>>
>>>> I want to be able to see the Flying Doctor and the
>>>> Mining-fly-in-fly-out plane just like a flarm target. And that is not
>>>> the case with a powerFlarm unless these planes are flarm equipped.
>>>> All you get is: "incoming" - no direction.
>>>>
>>>> PowerFlarm does not display transponder traffic sufficiently.
>>>>
>>>> I am waiting for TABS and am happy to pay $1500 for something that
>>>> actually works.
>>>> Erich
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 12:51 PM, Casey Jay Lewis <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Take that shotgun off your hip Erich, before you have someone's eye
>>>>> out! :P
>>>>>
>>>>> It seems you're confusing ADS-B Out with PowerFLARM and its
>>>>> capabilities/requirements.
>>>>>
>>>>> You've also claimed 'range ring' only for ADS-B equipped traffic and
>>>>> that's just not true.
>>>>>
>>>>> With a PowerFLARM, you will see relative distance and altitude
>>>>> information
>>>>> for:
>>>>> - PowerFLARM traffic
>>>>> - OzFLARM traffic
>>>>> - ADS-B equipped traffic
>>>>> You don't need any other equipment / 'smoke generators'
>>>>>
>>>>> You will see reduced information for transponder only traffic, down
>>>>> to a mere 'range ring' for Mode A/C transponders.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's unfortunate that OzFLARM et al is no longer supported but
>>>>> they've clearly taken the decision to allow gradual obsolescence to
>>>>> force upgrades to the latest standard, with all the associated
>>>>> benefits
>>> that entails.
>>>>> Make no mistake, all the legacy equipment will keep working just as
>>>>> it always has.
>>>>>
>>>>> PowerFLARM USA/AUS are compatible. PowerFLARM EUR is not. Not only
>>>>> are the frequencies different (EUR freq prohibited in the USA) but
>>>>> the FCC also mandate the connector type (reverse SMA). No
>>>>> conspiracy
>>> theory there.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, Flarm encryption came about due to a genuine privacy issue.
>>>>> Other entities were decrypting Flarm data to display personal
>>>>> information in contravention of EU privacy legislation. I couldn't
>>>>> give two hoots if someone tracks my gliders position on OGN,
>>>>> FlightAware, FlightRadar24 etc but others may and can try suing the
>>>>> bejesus out of PowerFLARM for letting it happen. A detailed article
>>>>> in
>>> Gliding International covered this.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I recall correctly, Flarm have undertaken to share their
>>>>> collision avoidance technology with other manufacturers in the
>>>>> interests of safety, once the privacy issue is addressed. So long
>>>>> as they keep their word on this, I have no problem with the path
> they've
>> taken.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Casey
>>>>> PowerFLARM user since 2012
>>>>>
>>>>> iPad transmission
>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 21 May 2015, at 10:07,
>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Send Aus-soaring mailing list submissions to
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>>>> than "Re: Contents of Aus-soaring digest..."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock)
>>>>>> 2. Re: flarmin' hell (Grietje Wansink) 3. Re: flarmin' hell (Mike
>>>>>> Borgelt) 4. Re: flarmin' hell (Erich Wittstock)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> -
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:04:03 +1000
>>>>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell
>>>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>>>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <caph3ineq_4-2zbo0zwqmrd-cxyz04jd9cudysza1pf1ods9...@mail.gmail.com
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag
>>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong:
>>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition.
>>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly
>>>>> working
>>>>>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some people
>>>>>> own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus..
>>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not
>>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy
>>>>>> a
>>>>> powerFlarm.
>>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you.
>>>>>> Erich
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit
>>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no
>>>>>> indication of
>>>>> direction.
>>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable.
>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>>>>> scrubbed...
>>>>>> URL: <
>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment
>>>>> s
>>>>> /20150521/01668b35/attachment.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 2
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 10:12:35 +1000
>>>>>> From: Grietje Wansink <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell
>>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as I have understood and experienced:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Powerflarm dedicated to Australia will work in Australia (we have
>>>>>> two gliders to confirm) but when dedicated to Europe will NOT work
>>>>>> in Australia (we can confirm that also :-( ).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LX integrated flarm will automatically change to Australian
>>>>>> frequency when they find themselves in Australia.
>>>>>> We also have experienced this.
>>>>>> Encryption will not change this as it is automatically.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also I thought GFA is looking into this matter as it will have
>>>>>> consequences for the WGC Junior competition in Narromine and the
>>>>>> WGC in Benalla.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Grietje
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 21/05/2015 10:04 am, Erich Wittstock wrote:
>>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag
>>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong:
>>>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition.
>>>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly
>>>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some
>>>>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus..
>>>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not
>>>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy
>>>>>>> a powerFlarm.
>>>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you.
>>>>>>> Erich
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit
>>>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no
>>>>>>> indication of direction.
>>>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>>>>> scrubbed...
>>>>>> URL: <
>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment
>>>>> s
>>>>> /20150521/eb6c53ac/attachment.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 3
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:23:01 +1000
>>>>>> From: Mike Borgelt <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell
>>>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>>>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Erich,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be
>>>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction
>>>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give
>>>>>> direction either. Both should give relative altitudes though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK what is TABS?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote:
>>>>>>> <
>>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag
>>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol
>>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag
>>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong:
>>>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition.
>>>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly
>>>>>>> working flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly
>>>>> $2500!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some
>>>>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation
>>>>> Zeus..
>>>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not
>>>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy
>>>>>>> a powerFlarm.
>>>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you.
>>>>>>> Erich
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit
>>>>>>> like a joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no
>>>>>>> indication of direction.
>>>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable.
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring
>>>>>> instrumentation since 1978 www.borgeltinstruments.com
>>>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
>>>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784
>>>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>>>>> scrubbed...
>>>>>> URL: <
>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment
>>>>> s
>>>>> /20150521/c05f252a/attachment.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Message: 4
>>>>>> Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:07:28 +1000
>>>>>> From: Erich Wittstock <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] flarmin' hell
>>>>>> To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
>>>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>>>> Message-ID:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <caph3ing2vymp3vza0lrqzlmupxm+gjkjdmqfea9cu2s-ls0...@mail.gmail.com
>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Mike (et al),
>>>>>> yes, ADSB will give direction and altitude in a TCAS system.
>>>>>> But if you are "just" a glider pilot and you purchase a powerflarm
>>>>>> - it still is not the best solution. Just more expensive.
>>>>>> If you have a PowerFlarm and hook transponder data into it: you do
>>>>>> not
>>>>> get
>>>>>> a direction warning indication, just "incoming". Only Flarm traffic
>>>>>> is shown comprehensively, even with climb rate etc...
>>>>>> The direction / altitude data from a transponder only appears after
>>>>>> you throw a few thousand dollars more at your glider instrument
>>>>>> panel and get additional boxes containing magic smoke.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> TABS: "Traffic Advisory Broadcast System".
>>>>>>> From my understanding: it is backwards compatible: It is another
>>>>>>> (new)
>>>>> box
>>>>>> containing magic smoke and is able to mix Flarm and transponder
>>>>>> smoke. It will cost less than buying a transponder and powerflarm.
>>>>>> "TSO-C199" is the data-sheet for the new smoke.
>>>>> http://www.icao.int/APAC/Meetings/2015%20ADSBSITF14/SP08b_FAA%20TABS
>>>>> %
>>>>> 20briefing.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am looking after my original OZFlarm and wait for TABS.
>>>>>> However, encrypting the Flarm protocol would mean I would have to
>>>>>> fork
>>>>> out
>>>>>> $2500 for a powerflarm just because the Flarm makers are greedy and
>>>>>> want all other manufacturers out of their business.
>>>>>> My existing OZFlarm would be useless even as a paperweight since it
>>>>>> is
>>>>> too
>>>>>> light (that's why it is great for a glider).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The good 'ol flarm can be configured via software (by the user) to
>>>>> operate
>>>>>> at different frequencies - to work in different countries. Later
>>>>>> Flarm firmware versions switch frequencies automatically and allow
>>>>>> you to take
>>>>> a
>>>>>> flarm from Europe to the US and Australia without any problems.
>>>>>> Powerflarms have to be configured by the manufacturer to change
>>>>> frequencies
>>>>>> - and the Flarmin Swiss Company will charge a few toblerones for that!
>>>>> Why?
>>>>>> because they can!
>>>>>> ...make sure you select the "US/Australia" powerflarm from the
>>>>>> millenair website, if you really have to buy a powerflarm and can't
>>>>>> wait
>>> for TABS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Third party manufacturers such as LX Nav / LX Navigation utilise
>>>>>> the good 'ol flarm in their devices - that's why they switch
>>>>>> automatically
>>>>> according
>>>>>> where you are. However, I can foresee that being stopped by the
>>>>>> "flarm
>>>>> data
>>>>>> encryption". You will need two powerflarms: One for Europe and the
>>>>>> other for US/Australia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A bit like no longer being able to take your phone overseas and
>>>>>> just
>>>>> using
>>>>>> it with a sim card from that country..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lucky for us users: there are enough brainy people out there that
>>>>>> are capable of designing something that is far superior to flarm.
>>>>>> Erich
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Mike Borgelt <
>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Erich,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ADSB monitoring should give direction just like Flarm. You may be
>>>>>>> seeing Mode S returns with no ADSB position/speed/direction
>>>>>>> information in the message. Or Mode C returns which won't give
>>>>>>> direction either. Both
>>>>> should
>>>>>>> give relative altitudes though.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK what is TABS?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> At 10:04 AM 21/05/2015, you wrote:
>>>>> https://www.change.org/p/mr-urs-rothacher-flarm-chairman-petition-ag
>>>>> a inst-flarm-decision-to-encrypt-the-communication-protocol
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please correct me if I am wrong:
>>>>>>> Anyone who does not own a powerflarm should sign the petition.
>>>>>>> ..unless you are happy with being forced to replace your perfectly
>>>>> working
>>>>>>> flarm with a powerflarm - that is nearly $2500!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any OZflarm, miniOz, flarm-mouse, etc will be affected. Some
>>>>>>> people own gadgets like LXNax LX90xx or LXNavigation Zeus..
>>>>>>> Guess what: the integrated flarm engine of your very nice but not
>>>>>>> cheap instrument will be rendered useless and you will have to buy
>>>>>>> a
>>>>> powerFlarm.
>>>>>>> ..I would sign if I were you.
>>>>>>> Erich
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My personal view: PowerFlarm with ADSB traffic monitoring is a bit
>>>>>>> like
>>>>> a
>>>>>>> joke. Yes, there is a warning of "incoming". But no indication of
>>>>> direction.
>>>>>>> TABS is in the making and looks very promising - and affordable.
>>>>>>> ?
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Borgelt Instruments* -
>>>>>>> *design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation since
>>>>>>> 1978
>>>>>>> * www.borgeltinstruments.com
>>>>>>> tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
>>>>>>> mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784
>>>>>>> P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>>>>> scrubbed...
>>>>>> URL: <
>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment
>>>>> s
>>>>> /20150521/2dc522d2/attachment.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>>>
>>>>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 18
>>>>>> ********************************************
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>> To check or change subscription details, visit:
>>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>>>> scrubbed...
>>>> URL:
>>>>
<http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/private/aus-soaring/attachment>>>> s
>>>> /20150521/3324870f/attachment.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>>> [email protected]
>>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>>
>>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 20
>>>> ********************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>> [email protected]
>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>
>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 21
>>> ********************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>>> [email protected]
>>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>>
>>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 22
>>> ********************************************
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>
>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 23
>> ********************************************
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Aus-soaring mailing list
>> [email protected]
>> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>>
>> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 24
>> ********************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
>
> End of Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 140, Issue 26
> ********************************************
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
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