Hi Sabrina,

The changes look good! Thank you!

Madison Church
RFC Production Center

> On Oct 28, 2025, at 7:05 PM, Sabrina Tanamal via RT <[email protected]> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Madison, 
> 
> Thank you for pointing out some of the errors below. These have been fixed 
> and updated: 
> 
> https://www.iana.org/assignments/ikev2-parameters
> 
> Thanks,
> Sabrina
> 
> On Tue Oct 28 15:33:20 2025, [email protected] wrote:
>> IANA,
>> 
>> Please make the following changes to match the updated document (RFC
>> 9838).
>> 
>> 1) Update the title of the "Group-wide Policy Attributes" registry
>> (https://www.iana.org/assignments/ikev2-parameters/ikev2-
>> parameters.xhtml#group-wide-policy-attributes) to "Group-Wide Policy
>> Attributes".
>> 
>> 2) The "Reserved for Private Use" ranges in the "GSA Attributes",
>> "Group-wide Policy Attributes", and "Member Key Bag Attributes"
>> registries do not reference this document (while the "Group Key Bag
>> Attributes" registry does; see https://www.iana.org/assignments/ikev2-
>> parameters/ikev2-parameters.xhtml#group-key-bag-attributes). Please
>> update the reference column of the three registries listed above to
>> include this document as a reference for the "Reserved for Private
>> Use" ranges.
>> 
>> 3) For the "GSA Attributes" registry, please update the following:
>>        a) Update the "Unassigned" range to "4-16383" (originally "5-
>> 16383").
>>        b) Update the registry title to "Group SA Attributes"
>> (originally "GSA Attributes").
>>        c) Update the title of the "GSA Attributes" column to "Group
>> SA Attributes".
>> 
>> For a visual of these updates, please see: https://www.rfc-
>> editor.org/authors/rfc9838-auth48rfcdiff.html.
>> 
>> Thank you!
>> 
>> Madison Church
>> RFC Production Center
>> 
>>> On Oct 28, 2025, at 9:32 AM, Madison Church <[email protected]
>>> editor.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Valery and Brian,
>>> 
>>> Thank you for your replies! We have updated the document accordingly
>>> and have noted both approvals on the AUTH48 status page (see
>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/auth48/rfc9838). Now that we have all
>>> author approvals, we will send updates to IANA shortly.
>>> 
>>> Updated files:
>>>  https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.txt
>>>  https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.pdf
>>>  https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.html
>>>  https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.xml
>>> 
>>> Updated diff files:
>>>  https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-diff.html
>>>  https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-rfcdiff.html (side by
>>> side)
>>>  https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-auth48diff.html
>>>  https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-auth48rfcdiff.html (side
>>> by side)
>>>  https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-lastdiff.html
>>>  https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-lastrfcdiff.html (side
>>> by side)
>>> 
>>> Thank you!
>>> 
>>> Madison Church
>>> RFC Production Center
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 28, 2025, at 3:13 AM, Valery Smyslov <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Madison and Brian,
>>>> 
>>>> thank you for this update.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> While re-reading the text, I found one more unfixed instance of
>>>> incorrect use of "GSA":
>>>> 
>>>> Section 4.4.2.2.1.
>>>> 
>>>> CURRENT:
>>>> When
>>>> the lifetime expires, the GSA and all associated keys MUST be
>>>> deleted.
>>>> 
>>>> NEW:
>>>> When
>>>> the lifetime expires, the group SA and all associated keys MUST be
>>>> deleted.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I approve the publication provided that this is fixed.
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you all for your patience and cooperation!
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Valery.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Brian and Valery,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you for your replies! We have updated the document with
>>>>> Valery’s “Perhaps 5” suggestion. That said, we
>>>>> believe there are no further questions remaining.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Once we receive approvals from both authors, we will send updates
>>>>> along to IANA!
>>>>> 
>>>>> The files have been posted here (please refresh):
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.txt
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.pdf
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.html
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.xml
>>>>> 
>>>>> The relevant diff files have been posted here (please refresh):
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-diff.html
>>>>> (comprehensive diff)
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-rfcdiff.html (side by
>>>>> side)
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-auth48diff.html (AUTH48
>>>>> changes)
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-auth48rfcdiff.html
>>>>> (side by side)
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-lastdiff.html (most
>>>>> recent changes)
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-lastrfcdiff.html (side
>>>>> by side)
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>> Madison Church
>>>>> RFC Production Center
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 23, 2025, at 10:47 AM, Brian Weis <[email protected]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Valery,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I’m quite happy with your “Perhaps 5” text. Let’s go with that. I
>>>>>> think this might be the last wording issue. :-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Oct 22, 2025, at 10:09 PM, Valery Smyslov <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>>>> please see inline.
>>>>>>> Hi Valery,
>>>>>>> One reply is inline.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Oct 22, 2025, at 11:54 AM, Valery Smyslov <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> please find my comments inline.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hi Madison,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 21, 2025, at 2:30 PM, Madison Church
>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> editor.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Brian, Valery, and *Deb,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> *Deb - Please review and approve the added text to Section 1.2
>>>>>>>>>> (Group SA
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> definition). This change may be viewed here: https://www.rfc-
>>>>>>>>> editor.org/authors/rfc9838-lastdiff.html.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Brian and Valery - Thank you both for your detailed replies!
>>>>>>>>>> We have
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> incorporated the requested updates. See below for a few (final)
>>>>>>>>> proposed
>>>>>>>>> changes. Aside from the following, we believe there are no
>>>>>>>>> remaining inquiries
>>>>>>>>> that are outstanding. Please review the document carefully to
>>>>>>>>> ensure
>>>>>>>>> satisfaction as we do not make changes once it has been
>>>>>>>>> published as an RFC.
>>>>>>>>> Contact us with any further updates or with your approval of
>>>>>>>>> the document in
>>>>>>>>> its current form. We will await approvals from each author
>>>>>>>>> prior to asking
>>>>>>>>> IANA to make their updates.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Whew! The changes all look fine to me, thanks.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I’ve added some replies your questions below, which should be
>>>>>>>>> addressed
>>>>>>>>> before approval.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> We spotted 4 additional instances of "GSA policy" and 2
>>>>>>>>>> additional instances
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> of "GSA attributes" that were not included in the list of
>>>>>>>>> updates. Should these
>>>>>>>>> instances be updated to "group SA policy" and "group SA
>>>>>>>>> attributes" as well?
>>>>>>>>> Or should they remain as is?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Oh, this is my fault, I somehow missed them :-(
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Section 4.4.1
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1) Current:
>>>>>>>>>> Depending on the employed security protocol, GSA policies may
>>>>>>>>>> further
>>>>>>>>>> be classified as Rekey SA (GSA KEK) policy and Data-Security
>>>>>>>>>> (GSA TEK) SA
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> policy.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps:
>>>>>>>>>> Depending on the employed security protocol, group SA policies
>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>> further be classified as Rekey SA (GSA KEK) policy and Data-
>>>>>>>>>> Security (GSA
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> TEK) SA policy.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I believe that “GSA policies” is referring to “Group Policies”
>>>>>>>>> in Figure 14, so I
>>>>>>>>> would suggest the following.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps 2:
>>>>>>>>> Depending on the employed security protocol, Group Policies may
>>>>>>>>> further be
>>>>>>>>> classified as Rekey SA (GSA KEK) policy and Data-Security (GSA
>>>>>>>>> TEK) SA policy.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> No, this text clarifies the types of SAs that can be considered
>>>>>>>> as "group SAs"
>>>>>>>> and for which group SA policy can be provided. Thus, I think
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> Madison's proposal is correct.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Along with the two preceding sentences the text is:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Group policies are comprised of two types: group SA policy and
>>>>>>>> group-
>>>>>>>> wide (GW) policy.  Group SA policy defines parameters for the
>>>>>>>> Security Association of the group.  Depending on the employed
>>>>>>>> security protocol, group SA policies may further be classified
>>>>>>>> as Rekey SA
>>>>>>>> (GSA KEK) policy and Data-Security (GSA TEK) SA policy.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> which gives all the context.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ok, that’s fine. But now I think that there’s a typo in this
>>>>>>> sentence,
>>>>>>> which is what tripped me up. The previous sentence refers to a
>>>>>>> plurality of security policies, and so should this one. Note the
>>>>>>> change
>>>>>>> below from “security protocol” to “security protocols”.
>>>>>>> Perhaps 3:
>>>>>>> Depending on the employed security protocols, Group Policies may
>>>>>>> further be
>>>>>>> classified as Rekey SA (GSA KEK) policy and Data-Security (GSA
>>>>>>> TEK) SA policy.
>>>>>>>        I have no problem with this change, but the text above
>>>>>>> still          talks about "Group Policy" and not
>>>>> about "group SA policy".
>>>>>>> I believe this is a typo (since you agreed with my previous
>>>>>>> message).           We classify Group
>>>>> Policies as "group SA policies" and "group-wide policy" above
>>>>>>> and then further classify the former as "Rekey SA policy" and
>>>>>>> "Data-Security SA policy".
>>>>>>> Thus, I think the text should be:
>>>>>>> Perhaps 4.
>>>>>>> Depending on the employed security protocols, group SA policies
>>>>>>> may further be
>>>>>>> classified as Rekey SA (GSA KEK) policies and Data-Security (GSA
>>>>>>> TEK) SA policies.
>>>>>>> (note, that I used plural form everywhere).
>>>>>>> Or instead:
>>>>>>> Perhaps 5.
>>>>>>> Depending on the employed security protocol, a group SA policy
>>>>>>> may be
>>>>>>> either a Rekey SA (GSA KEK) policy or a Data-Security (GSA TEK)
>>>>>>> SA policy.
>>>>>>> (Note that I used singular form everywhere and an "a" article to
>>>>>>> show that there may be two types of group SA
>>>>> policies).
>>>>>>> Which variant is better in your opinion? Of do you have a better
>>>>>>> one in mind?
>>>>>>> As for me, I slightly prefer the last variant.
>>>>>>>        Regards,
>>>>>>>       Valery.
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 2) Current (2 instances):
>>>>>>>>>> The format of the substructures is defined in Section 4.4.2
>>>>>>>>>> (for GSA
>>>>>>>>>> policy) and in Section 4.4.3 (for GW policy). The first octet
>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>> substructure unambiguously determines its type; it is zero for
>>>>>>>>>> GW
>>>>>>>>>> policy and non-zero (actually, it contains a Security Protocol
>>>>>>>>>> Identifier) for GSA policies.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps:
>>>>>>>>>> The format of the substructures is defined in Section 4.4.2
>>>>>>>>>> (for group
>>>>>>>>>> SA
>>>>>>>>>> policy) and in Section 4.4.3 (for GW policy). The first octet
>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>> substructure unambiguously determines its type; it is zero for
>>>>>>>>>> GW
>>>>>>>>>> policy and non-zero (actually, it contains a Security Protocol
>>>>>>>>>> Identifier) for group SA policies.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I believe this is a correct change.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I agree.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Section 4.4.2
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1) Current:
>>>>>>>>>> Section 4.4.2.2 defines attributes used in GSA policy
>>>>>>>>>> substructure.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps:
>>>>>>>>>> Section 4.4.2.2 defines attributes used in group SA policy
>>>>>>>>>> substructure.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The update seems correct. However, I would not object to also
>>>>>>>>> adding “the”
>>>>>>>>> before “group SA", which was missing in the original text
>>>>>>>>> i.e.,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps 2:
>>>>>>>>> … “used in the group SA …"
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I agree.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Section 4.4.2.2
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1) Current:
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike security parameters distributed via transforms, which
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> expected not to change over time (unless the policy changes),
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> parameters distributed via GSA attributes may depend on the
>>>>>>>>>> time the
>>>>>>>>>> provision takes place, on the existence of others group SAs,
>>>>>>>>>> or on other
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps:
>>>>>>>>>> Unlike security parameters distributed via transforms, which
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> expected not to change over time (unless the policy changes),
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> parameters distributed via group SA attributes may depend on
>>>>>>>>>> the time
>>>>>>>>>> the provision takes place, on the existence of others group
>>>>>>>>>> SAs, or on other
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This also seems correct. However, I think there’s a slight typo
>>>>>>>>> in the last line of
>>>>>>>>> the original text (“other” should not be plural).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps 2:
>>>>>>>>> … existence of other group SAs ...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Yes.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 2) Current:
>>>>>>>>>> This document creates a new IKEv2 IANA registry for the types
>>>>>>>>>> of GSA
>>>>>>>>>> attributes, which has been initially populated as described in
>>>>>>>>>> Section
>>>>>>>>>> 9.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps:
>>>>>>>>>> This document creates a new IKEv2 IANA registry for the types
>>>>>>>>>> of group
>>>>>>>>>> SA attributes, which has been initially populated as described
>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>> Section 9.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This seems correct to me.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Exactly.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>> Valery.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> P.S. I seem to realize how I missed these 6 cases - I simply
>>>>>>>> searched the draft text
>>>>>>>> for "GSA policy", "GSA attribute" and forgot that there may be
>>>>>>>> plural form "policies"
>>>>>>>> and the searched text may be also split by line break. Alas.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Many thanks!
>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The files have been posted here (please refresh):
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.txt
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.pdf
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.html
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.xml
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The relevant diff files have been posted here (please
>>>>>>>>>> refresh):
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-diff.html
>>>>>>>>>> (comprehensive
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> changes)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-rfcdiff.html (side
>>>>>>>>>> by side)
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-auth48diff.html
>>>>>>>>>> (all AUTH48
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> changes)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-auth48rfcdiff.html
>>>>>>>>>> (side by
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> side)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-lastdiff.html (diff
>>>>>>>>>> showing latest
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> updates)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-lastrfcdiff.html
>>>>>>>>>> (side by
>>>>>>>>>> side)
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> For the AUTH48 status of this document, please see:
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/auth48/rfc9838
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>>>>>>> Madison Church
>>>>>>>>>> RFC Production Center
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 21, 2025, at 1:44 AM, Valery Smyslov <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Valery,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> These changes look fine to me, if everyone agrees that
>>>>>>>>>>>> making this
>>>>>>>>>>>> much change is acceptable. Certainly they clean up
>>>>>>>>>>>> inconsistence
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> regarding “GSA”.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> However, it strikes me that the document is now so populated
>>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>> the term “group SA”, so it should probably be defined in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Section 1.2.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Possibly:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW
>>>>>>>>>>>> Group SA: A Data-Security SA or Rekey SA that is shared as
>>>>>>>>>>>> part of Group
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> policy.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Good idea!
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I think it should be inserted between the "Rekey SA"
>>>>>>>>>>> definition and the
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "Group Security Association (GSA)" definition.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> And I also think that "Group policy" should be "group policy"
>>>>>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> consistent with other uses of this words.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Thus (a detailed change request for Madison):
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> OLD:
>>>>>>>>>>> Rekey SA:
>>>>>>>>>>> A single multicast SA between the GCKS and all of the GMs.
>>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>>> SA is used for multicast transmission of key management
>>>>>>>>>>> messages
>>>>>>>>>>> from the GCKS to all GMs.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Group Security Association (GSA):
>>>>>>>>>>> A collection of Data-Security SAs and Rekey SAs necessary
>>>>>>>>>>> for a GM
>>>>>>>>>>> to receive key updates.  A GSA describes the working policy
>>>>>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>>>>> group.  Refer to the MSEC Group Key Management Architecture
>>>>>>>>>>> [RFC4046] for additional information.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>> Rekey SA:
>>>>>>>>>>> A single multicast SA between the GCKS and all of the GMs.
>>>>>>>>>>> This
>>>>>>>>>>> SA is used for multicast transmission of key management
>>>>>>>>>>> messages
>>>>>>>>>>> from the GCKS to all GMs.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Group SA:
>>>>>>>>>>> A Data-Security SA or Rekey SA that is shared as part of
>>>>>>>>>>> group policy.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Group Security Association (GSA):
>>>>>>>>>>> A collection of Data-Security SAs and Rekey SAs necessary
>>>>>>>>>>> for a GM
>>>>>>>>>>> to receive key updates.  A GSA describes the working policy
>>>>>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>>>>> group.  Refer to the MSEC Group Key Management Architecture
>>>>>>>>>>> [RFC4046] for additional information.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> Valery.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 17, 2025, at 12:43 AM, Valery Smyslov
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Deb, Brian, Madison,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking into consideration Deb’s opinion, I think that for
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> purpose of making the abbreviations unambiguous,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the simplest change would be to
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> just replace “GSA” with “group SA” for “GSA policy” (14
>>>>>>>>>>>>> instances),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> “GSA transforms” (3 instances) and “GSA
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> attributes” (10 instances),
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> with no change to “GSA payload” as Brian rightly noticed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that this is a
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> correct term.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I checked the draft and here the concrete instances to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> change I found:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For "GSA Policy":
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Section 4.4.1. (2 instances)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group policies are comprised of two types: GSA policy and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GW policy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GSA policy defines parameters for the Security Association
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group policies are comprised of two types: group SA policy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and group-
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> wide (GW) policy.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group  SA policy defines parameters for the Security
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Association of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) Section 4.4.2. (4 instances)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The GSA policy substructure contains parameters for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> single SA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is used with this group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Figure 15: GSA Policy Substructure Format
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The GSA policy fields are defined as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Section 4.4.2.1 describes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> using IKEv2 transforms in GSA policy substructure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The group SA policy substructure contains parameters for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> single
>>>>>>>>>>>>> SA that is used with this group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Figure 15: Group SA Policy Substructure Format
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The group SA policy fields are defined as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Section 4.4.2.1 describes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> using IKEv2 transforms in the group SA policy substructure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) Section 4.4.2.1. (3 instances)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GSA policy is defined by the means of transforms in the GSA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> policy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> substructure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly one instance of each mandatory Transform Type and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one instance of each optional Transform Type MUST be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> present in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GSA policy substructure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group SA policy is defined by the means of transforms in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the group
>>>>>>>>>>>>> SA policy substructure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly one instance of each mandatory Transform Type and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one instance of each optional Transform Type MUST be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> present in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> group SA policy substructure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) Section 4.4.2.2. (1 instance), see also 11) below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GSA attributes are generally used to provide GMs with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> additional
>>>>>>>>>>>>> parameters for the GSA policy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group SA attributes are generally used to provide GMs with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> additional parameters for the group SA policy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) Section 4.4.2.2.1. (1 instance)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A single attribute of this type MUST be included into any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GSA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> policy substructure if multicast rekey is employed by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GCKS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A single attribute of this type MUST be included into any
>>>>>>>>>>>>> group SA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> policy substructure if multicast rekey is employed by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GCKS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) Section 4.4.2.2.2. (1 instance)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this case this attribute will be included into the GSA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> policy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when the GM is registered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In this case this attribute will be included into the group
>>>>>>>>>>>>> SA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> policy when the GM is registered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) Section 4.4.2.2.3. (1 instance)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The length of the attribute data is determined by the SPI
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size
>>>>>>>>>>>>> field in the GSA policy substructure the attribute resides
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in (see
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Section 4.4.2), and the attribute data contains the SPI as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> appear on the network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The length of the attribute data is determined by the SPI
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Size
>>>>>>>>>>>>> field in the group SA policy substructure the attribute
>>>>>>>>>>>>> resides in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (see Section 4.4.2), and the attribute data contains the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> SPI as it
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would appear on the network.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7) Section 4.5.4 (1 instance)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In addition, if the GCKS plans
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to use the multicast Rekey SA for group rekey, then it MUST
>>>>>>>>>>>>> specify
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the key wrap algorithm in the GSA policy for the Rekey SA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inside
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the GSA payload.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In addition, if the GCKS plans
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to use the multicast Rekey SA for group rekey, then it MUST
>>>>>>>>>>>>> specify
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the key wrap algorithm in the group SA policy for the Rekey
>>>>>>>>>>>>> SA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> inside the GSA payload.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For "GSA Transforms":
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8) Section 4.4.2. (2 instances)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~                       <GSA Transforms>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GSA Transforms (variable):
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~                    <Group SA Transforms>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group SA Transforms (variable):
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 9) Section 4.4.2.1. (1 instance)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.4.2.1.  GSA Transforms
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.4.2.1.  Group SA Transforms
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For "GSA Attributes":
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10) Section 4.4.2. (2 instances)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~                       <GSA Attributes>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GSA Attributes (variable):
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~                    <Group SA Attributes>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group SA Attributes (variable):
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 11) Section 4.4.2.2. (4 instances), see also 4) above
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.4.2.2.  GSA Attributes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GSA attributes are generally used to provide GMs with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> additional
>>>>>>>>>>>>> parameters for the GSA policy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |Value| GSA Attributes         |Format|Multi-Valued| Used
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in      |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Table 5: GSA Attributes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4.4.2.2.  Group SA Attributes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group SA attributes are generally used to provide GMs with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> additional parameters for the group SA policy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |Value| Group SA Attributes    |Format|Multi-Valued| Used
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in      |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Table 5: Group SA Attributes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 12) Section 5 (2 instances)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> | GSA Attributes (Section 4.4.2.2)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> | GSA Attributes (Section 4.4.2.2)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> | Group SA Attributes (Section 4.4.2.2)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> | Group SA Attributes (Section 4.4.2.2)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 13) Section 9.1 (2 instances)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3.  IANA has created the "Group SA Attributes" registry.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The registration
>>>>>>>>>>>>> policy for this registry is Expert Review [RFC8126].  The
>>>>>>>>>>>>> initial
>>>>>>>>>>>>> values of the registry are as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> +===========+======================+======+======+============+
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |Value      |Group SA Attributes   |Format|Multi-|Used in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |           |                      |      |Valued|Protocol
>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is this acceptable? Brian, Deb, your opinion?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> And this would require to update IANA registries, since the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> name of one
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> is changed...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valery.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I may not be tracking this issue correctly (and please
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct me if I get
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> this wrong).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would make acronyms (like GSA) consistent within this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specification.  I would not worry, or consider what
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> other specifications use an acronym for some other expansion
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (heck, I see GSA and think 'General Services
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Administration' - a US Fed
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> organization).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Deb
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2025 at 5:28 PM Brian Weis
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> HI Madison, Valery, Deb,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 2025, at 7:29 AM, Madison Church
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Valery,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your reply! Please see inline.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 7, 2025, at 3:56 AM, Valery Smyslov
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Madison,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thank you for this update, please see inline.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Valery and Brian,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for your replies! We have posted updated files
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> below.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We believe that there is now only one
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> outstanding
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> item to address (see inline).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I noticed that the following requesting change wasn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> done:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 54) Section 4.4.1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CURRENT:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group policies are comprised of two types: GSA policy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and GW
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> policy.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it is not consistent, but I think that we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should re-expand
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> GW here (and perhaps GSA too).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> GW is defined in the very beginning and is not used
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this point, thus I think it would be helpful for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> readers to remind
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> what it is.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group policies are comprised of two types: group SA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (GSA) policy
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> and group-wide (GW) policy.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While I admit that the proposed text re-expanded the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terms
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that have already been expanded, the rationale for it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this expansion was ~30 pages before, and terms were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not used
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> since that, so re-expansion may help readers to refresh their
>>>>>>>>> memory. I don't
>>>>>>>>> insist, but I think this is helpful.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian, Deb, your opinion?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see no issue with re-expanding the terms, but if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison thinks it
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> isn’t needed then let’s leave it be.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) Thank you for pointing this out! This was actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> meant to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be included in the followup questions sent on
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 10/2,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but must have gotten lost due to the number of changes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> original thread. Apologies for missing this!
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While making updates to this document, we noticed that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems to be two different expansions for GSA (Group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Security
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Association and group SA). Is this intentional, or may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we make
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this consistent by replacing instances of "group SA"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abbreviation "GSA"? If yes, may we also make the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> following
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adjustment to
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "NEW" text as shown below?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a very good point and indeed a point for some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confusion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is not intentional, the reason is the lack of
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> words
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in authors' vocabulary (mostly me to blame) :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We have the following meanings:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - GSA (Group Security Association) - a collection of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Security Associations (both Data-Security SAs
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and Rekey SAs)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as defined in Section 1.2 (we also have GSA (Group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Security
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Association) payload - this is just a name of a
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> payload).
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - as for "group SA", - in the document this is used to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refer to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an individual Security Association within GSA (an
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> SA that belongs to a group).
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps this is a bad choice of words, but that is that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> the abbreviation is the same - GSA...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe Brian is more experienced in the roots of these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> terms and can
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> comment on this.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As mentioned in Section 1,"GSA (Group Security
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Association)"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the definition in RFC 3740 (The
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Multicast Group Security Architecture), so this is indeed
>>>>>>>>>>>> the most correct
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> use of the GSA acronym.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then RFC 4046 (Multicast Security (MSEC) Group Key
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Management
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Architecture) introduced the confusing
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> “group SA (GSA)” acronym, which somehow snuck into this
>>>>>>>>>>>> document. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> note that GDOI (RFC 6407), the predecessor to G-IKEv2, does
>>>>>>>>>>>> not use that
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> term for “group SA”.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus, we have:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - GSA - Group Security Association
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - GSA policy - group Security Association policy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is indeed confusing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps we can replace "GSA policy" with "group SA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policy" for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clarity (14 instances)? Brian, Deb, your
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But there are still "GSA transforms" (meaning group SA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms) and "GSA Attributes" (group SA
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> attributes)...
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Any ideas?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There’s also the “GSA Payload”, but because it lists policy
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> collection of SAs, which matches the intent of
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the original definition.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for the helpful explanation! We will wait for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian’s
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> response/comments before making any updates
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> to the expansion of GSA.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison Church
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RFC Production Center
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group policies are comprised of two types: Group
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Security
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Association (GSA) policy and group-wide (GW)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> policy.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Based on the distinction described above I think that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> correct
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> expanding here should be:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Group policies are comprised of two types: group SA (GSA)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policy and
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> group-wide (GW) policy.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rationale - the GSA policy here describes a single SA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within a GSA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This would be the simplest change, and I do not believe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> implementors would be confused by the duplicate
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> use of “GSA".  If we
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> were earlier on in the document process I might have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggested a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> term to more cleanly delineate this policy
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> element, but not now.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think in all three cases Valery mentioned (GSA policy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> GSA
>>>>>>>>>>>>> transforms, GSA Attributes) the term “GSA” does
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> not modify
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the word following, but is an equal part of the name of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> object
>>>>>>>>>>>>> being referenced, if that makes sense. As
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> such, I don’t see
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> any problem leaving them as is, and simply add Valery’s NEW
>>>>>>>>>>>>> text above.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Valery.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please review the document carefully to ensure
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> satisfaction as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we do not make changes once it has been published as an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RFC.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Contact us with any further updates or with your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approval of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> document in its
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> current
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> form. We will await approvals from each author prior to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moving
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> forward in the publication process.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Updated files have been posted below (please refresh):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.pdf
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838.xml
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Updated diff files:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-diff.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-rfcdiff.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (side by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> side) https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> auth48diff.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> auth48rfcdiff.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (side by side)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-lastdiff.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recent updates only)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9838-
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lastrfcdiff.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (side by side)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the AUTH48 status page, please see: https://www.rfc-
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> editor.org/auth48/rfc9838.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thank you!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madison Church
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> RFC Production Center
>>>> 
>>> 
> 


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