Leo Sutic wrote:
>
>>From: Leo Simons [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>
>>
>>>Leo Sutic wrote:
>>>
>>>>Carsten,
>>>>
>>>>you are right - everything gets a little bit more complicated.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, and this is the thing that worries me - I know a lot of people
>>>saying "Avalon is too complicated" and this makes it even a
>>
>>little bit
>>
>>>more complicated,
>>
>>hmm. Is it more complicated?
>
>
> As Vadim said in a comparison of Cocoon and Struts: Cocoon developers
> come from the "pattern hell" school of thought. (That was a point
> against Cocoon, if anyone missed it.)
And against Avalon.
It's so easy, that it's too hard (not a joke).
> Worth thinking about, as I have seen some people here accusing
> Cocoon of not following patterns cleanly enough.
>
> As a matter of fact, I think we scare the shit out of most people
> with the complexity of the framework already. Patterns within
> patterns... It is not whether there are patterns or not - it is
> the fact that you have patterns of patterns, and you must somehow
> grasp them all.
Correct.
After a week of teaching Avalon, I showed 2 implementation classes.
They said "is it this? easy!".
Users are better off seeing it's easy and that it works for them rather
that being told how it was concieved.
> So I completely understand Carsten. We will lose users. I see
> before me someone saying "F*** it. (1) They are obviously not committed
> to API stability, (2) just about when we've finally learned to use
> the framework (given how complex it is that may be a while), the next
> change will come along, (3) the cost of maintenance and keeping up
> with that will kill us. Let's roll our own framework."
(1) Berin can say anything ;-P but stability was never seen in Avalon (bad)
(2) And Berin will say it's a new version, we don't need to be
compatible (ie deprecation)
(3) Seen that, been there, heard it. It's true.
> If it is more complicated or not does not matter - what matters is
> what it is *percieved* as.
>
> For all its faults, A4 is *easy* to *use*. (Although I confess I never
> ever understood the RoleManager.)
You know what?
I would REALLY like to see AF 5 be a big fat bugfix release with regards
to A4.
That is:
- real-life examples, with ready to use containers (Merlin, Phoenix, etc)
- better interfaces, like the Service ones, based on real life needs
(not only mental masturbations)
- Examples, examples, examples, examples
- Usecases, usecases, usecases, usecases
- Documentation with images, images, images, images
It will have to *look* new, but will be what AF4 wshould have been all
way long.
If we change interfaces too much again we will loose our users.
We will. Believe me. Many told me.
This is not a rant but a proposal.
I want to see votes on this proposal, because we are playing with the
life of this project.
--
Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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