I don't mean to say that everything is predictable by what currently exists, 
but with technology one must obviously take things one day at a time. There is 
a lot of value in being one step ahead of the game, but being ten steps ahead 
is a waste of time.

I simply meant to say that I believe that Flash not only has a dominant market 
share today, but that the future still looks to me like it is in Flash. I am 
aware that Apple has not supported Flash in any of its mobile platforms, but 
one must wonder if they the sign of the future, or if they have missed the 
boat? Apple has much to gain by promoting sales through the iPhone App store 
and through iTunes, but is that the future?

I read an interesting article on HTML5 today:

http://gizmodo.com/5461711/giz-explains-why-html5-isnt-going-to-save-the-internet


If there were a shift in the market, it might be interesting Away3D were ported 
to HaXe, since its already designed to publish to multiple programming 
languages.

I guess I mean that I use Flash today because its the best tool for the job, 
and I believe it to be the best tool for the job tomorrow as well. As for the 
day after tomorrow? We'll have to see :)


On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 10:36:34 -0800, delfeld <[email protected]> wrote:

Joshua,

I have no real complaint with anything you said, except that you seem
to be answering a different concern.  The future of the web is
competitive, not predictable by what currently exists.

Opening up the options to make Away3D a pure C++ engine is an
interesting idea, as you have said.  This is not to suggest that
anyone do that, or adapt it to Silverlight, HTML5, etc.  It is a note
of caution, though.  I liked (and owned) the Amiga, but when windows95
came on the scene - which was a copy of Amiga OS - MS had a HUGE
marketshare which Amiga did not.  Size matters, and it may not be easy
to see the tipping point.  If Apple works to replace Flash,
disallowing Flash from it's browsers, then what difference does it
make if Flash has the market now?

My thoughts were just a perspective for developing Away3D, and letting
these developer's talents not disappear if there is some huge shift in
the market, or in Adobe.  Remember that the start of my initial
posting was about the future of Adobe code, which stemmed from the
idea of adopting Flash matrices and vectors, and not simply talking
about allowing for other programming languages.

Anyway, my comments were just food for thought.  Horrible, yummy food.

later,
N.


On Feb 5, 10:25 am, "Joshua Granick" <[email protected]> wrote:
There's something to be said about Flash:

- 99% adoption rate
- Single runtime
- Lightweight development tools
- Flexible architecture
- Powerful code language
- Media support

We know that Flash's high adoption rate is a big strong point, but there are 
many reasons why I still develop for Flash.

A single runtime removes the headache of producing a working product that works 
half of the time. In almost every case, if it works on my machine, it works on 
yours.

FlashDevelop is, in my opinion, one of the best code environments for any 
language, ever. If you prefer, there are also many other lightweight or simple 
ways to get a SWF compiled.

Flash's architecture is so flexible. What you see is what you get. There's 
something to be said about designing your own architecture, however you like 
it, and being able to literally copy and paste from After Effects, Illustrator, 
Photoshop and other apps and get to tweening or coding in a few minutes.

Actionscript 3 is very powerful, and a joy to work with.

Flash supports all kinds of media. Not every format, but everything you need 
for a game or immersive web experience.

HTML/CSS/Javascript runs differently on each browser, and is a pain at times to 
convert from designs to a working site. PHP benefits from being the same in 
each browser, but must be tested from a server, so the development cycle can 
take longer. Silverlight and other plugins are not as easy to use or as 
flexible. This may change, but it is common for plugins to use an architecture 
like Flex -- components and skinning.

I think Flash has competition on the video front, as HTML5 threatens market 
share and Silverlight offers robust DRM and streaming options, and it faces 
competition on the interactive front with Unity3D. My hope is that Adobe will 
be able to improve the performance of the player, in particular it's 3D and 
graphics acceleration performance. It's a bum deal if we need to post system 
requirements for accessing certain web content, but its the way things must go. 
With OS X and Windows 7 both implementing 3D acceleration in the shell, I hope 
that adequate 3D acceleration is becoming more ubiquitous.

I don't mean to communicate that you were speaking against Flash in any way, 
but I did feel compelled to describe several reasons why Flash is a major 
player in the field, and why I don't believe a plug-in like Silverlight or 
workflow like HTML/CSS/PHP/Javascript is going to unseat it. There are 
advantages to every approach, but I laugh when people insist that Javascript 
can do everything Flash can -- as if it were a full replacement. Not only is 
the time investment from a design comp to a live product much faster for most 
animated content, I wouldn't begin to consider Javascript as a replacement for 
the projects I have which combine Flash video, Box2D physics and Away3D 
rendering.

The largest detractors for Flash development have been SEO and mobile 
compatibility, but practically every mobile platform (except Apple) is about to 
receive Flash 10.1, which means Away3D for the WebOS, Blackberry, Windows 
Mobile, Android or Symbian user.

We'll see. Anyway, Flash could stand to run faster, and C++ may be an 
interesting source to draw from. I've seen Quake running in Alchemy, so it may 
be cool if more features were ported over from legacy C++ or into PixelBender 
extensions

On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 07:26:25 -0800, delfeld <[email protected]> wrote:
> Rob,

> Flash development works, and Away3D ends up being the best
> implementation for 3D in Flash at this point, since Papervision has
> suffered a programmer breakup.

> I want to mention that all Adobe products will be sharing the same
> code by 2013 - at least, that was the goal.  It may help to look to
> PS, AI, and Adobe PDF to see what functionality will be coming down
> the pipe.  It might be best to design with an "optimize" flag, or
> "optimizeForFlash", and have separate classes/methods handling what
> happens during a Matrix call, how to create a Vector, etc.  That would
> seem to be easier to maintain if/when Adobe shifts it's code again.

> Also, Box2D started in the C++ world, and was ported to Flash AS3.  It
> may be an idea to start looking at other programming languages.  Apple
> has recently threatened Flash (again) with using HTML5, and Microsoft
> Silverlight is the mainstay of Netflix and other major businesses.  It
> is conceivable that the Adobe world will be getting smaller in the
> future.  And, fyi, Ton Roosendaal of Blender said that he refuses to
> use Adobe products . . . don't know why, didn't ask; but Blender is
> part of THE free-ware pipe, and it may be good to have conversation
> with him about possible collaboration and the future of interactive
> 3D.

> later,
> N

> On Feb 4, 7:27 pm, Rob Bateman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hey Ronen

>> you're right in that Away3D 3.4 doesn't use a lot of Flash 10 only features.
>> However, two of the biggest additions in Flash 10 was the perspective
>> correct texture mapping and shader calculations using pixel bender, of which
>> 3.4 does attempt to take full advantage.

>> Away3D Lite is almost a demonstration of the engine Away3D will become, but
>> as any programmer will know, it is a lot easier (and quicker) to write
>> something for a new player from scratch than it is to adapt what is already
>> there without breaking functionality!

>> We have a lot of plans for the Flash 10 version of Away3D, so i wouldn't
>> expect the lack of Vector use or native Matrix3D methods to be the case for
>> much longer.

>> atb

>> Rob

>> On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:54 PM, Michael Iv <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > But Vector data type is used , and Shader class in  Dot3BitmapMaterialF10

>> > On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 12:30 AM, Ronen Tsamir 
<[email protected]>wrote:

>> >> Hi All

>> >> I just now move from PV3D to Away3D, because the Player 10 version.
>> >> I download the [away3d_3_4_0.zip]
>> >> If I understand correctly this is the Player 10 version. but when I
>> >> look at the AS code, I cant find any use of the Vector3D, Matrix3D or
>> >> drawTriangles.

>> >> so I don't sure if I work with the right Player 10 Version?

>> >> Any Help.....

>> > --
>> > Michael Ivanov ,Programmer
>> > Neurotech Solutions Ltd.
>> > Flex|Flash |Air |Games|OS|
>> > Tel-0526237969
>> > [email protected]
>> > [email protected]

>> --
>> Rob Bateman
>> Flash Development & Consultancy

>> [email protected]

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