Hi Mara What year did your GGrandfather go to Africa? Where did you get the passports? Maybe they went to Africa for work. Was there any particular gold mining or the like I wonder. Just a thought. Thanks for the link to the Qland gov. site. I haven't looked at the Qland records for a while and it seems to be updated. I see they have electoral rolls for the time but they are on CD ROM. I will give them a call and see if I can access them without travelling to Qland. Joaquim's wife, my GGrandma, actually lived in Qland after immigrating from Denmark. She was married there to her Danish boyfriend and never divorced. This is why I think that Joaquim probably was in Qland too: they "disappeared" down to Sydney and took on a new name. Can't find what happened to her first husband - anywhere. Such fun. All these skeletons in the closet and to think that my parents and grandparents didn't know about the things we are now finding out. Diane
On Sunday, 4 November 2012 12:18:44 UTC+10:30, Mara wrote: > Hello Diane, > > My ggfather went to Africa from Sao Miguel at 20 years of age, a newlywed > with a good reason to return, his wife. When I look at the passports it > showed only 3 men leaving for Africa...why did he do it? We can only guess. > > I found this link > http://www.slq.qld.gov.au/resources/family-history/info-guides/immigration > Perhaps > you're familiar with it but if not it might be a good resource for your > search. > > Take care, > Mara > > > > On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Diane <ddo...@bigpond.net.au <javascript:> > > wrote: > >> Hi Mara >> >> Yes he could have gone to the USA first but my Grandma never mentioned >> anywhere by Hawaii and I know from my research that there were many, many >> whaling boats in the harbours at that time. Also the fact that he had no >> trouble changing his name means that it's hard to know who to look for. I >> only have his real name through the letters written to him by his >> stepmother in the Azores. I cannot even be sure about which port he entered >> into Australia because none of the indexes show him. >> >> I just wonder what made him choose Australia when most of his peers >> seemed to stay in the US. Yes I have many amazing stories of my Australian >> pioneer ancestors on my father's side, dating back to the arrival of the >> First Fleet. Also an American 3xgreat-grandfather from Baltimore. That one >> is a bigger challenge again. This newly discovered Azorean ancestry is the >> icing on the cake as we say. >> >> Regards >> Diane >> >> >> On Saturday, 3 November 2012 14:22:58 UTC+10:30, Mara wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> These certificates were in the form of a piece of paper and I don't >>> imagine there is a registry for it. And that's correct, only Sao Miguel >>> has passports on line and they start in 1875. It's a difficult task to >>> trace whalers. Have you considered the possibility he entered the USA >>> first before going to Australia. >>> >>> Those stories are amazing feats of bravery of ancestors. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Mara >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Diane <ddo...@bigpond.net.au> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> That is a great help thank you Margaret >>>> >>>> I think that my GGrandfather Joaquim left Sao Jorge in around 1870 and >>>> his brother Manuel was 3 years younger, so maybe the certificate is about >>>> a >>>> passport. Or, as you say, his marriage if it is 1877. I will search the >>>> marriages for Manuel. It was not inheritance because Joaquim as the elder >>>> son was asked (by mail) to deal with the estate when his father died in >>>> 1881. We don't know what happened. Am I correct in that there is no record >>>> of these certificates? Also I believe that passports for that time are not >>>> digitised as yet. >>>> >>>> I read some history written by Robert L Santos, a librarian and >>>> archivist at the California State Univ. He mentions how the American >>>> whaling industry provided an opportunity for young men to leave the >>>> Azores, >>>> often to escape conscription. He relates a witness account (early 1870s) >>>> of >>>> how young men from Sao Jorge climbed down the cliffs and were taken off >>>> the >>>> island during the night. An English brig had taken off 80 on one >>>> particular >>>> night. ??? >>>> >>>> My mother remembered her grandfather Joaquim and said he was a sailor >>>> who took cattle across to Hawaii. I think he was probably one of the >>>> "escapees" mentioned in these stories, so there would be no passport for >>>> him - and there is no record of his immigration to Aust. The first record >>>> is the birth of his first child in 1878 in Sydney. By then he was no >>>> longer >>>> called Joaquim, but Anthony Mitchell and he was working on the wharves in >>>> Sydney. >>>> >>>> Now to look for Manuel. I am almost sure now that this obit is our >>>> Victorina (mother of Joaquim and Manuel) - right age, right husband, right >>>> first name, right time span,right parish. It all fits. >>>> >>>> I am grateful for that new information. >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Diane Donnon >>>> South Australia >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, 2 November 2012 23:43:01 UTC+10:30, Mara wrote: >>>> >>>>> Diane, >>>>> >>>>> First to clarify my 1871? 1877. It means I'm not sure if it reads >>>>> 1871 or 1877 because the writing was too small and faded. >>>>> >>>>> Priests side notes on baptismal records are related to the person the >>>>> record belongs to, in this case, the child, Manuel. He could have >>>>> needed a proof of birth or baptism for marriage, sometimes the army or >>>>> ID card/passport, if no civil records available or, in the case of him >>>>> having been predeceased a proof of his birth record would be required >>>>> by the family for legal matters i.e. inheritances. >>>>> >>>>> Standard notes on birth records are: >>>>> >>>>> certificate - issued for various personal reasons, ie. marriage, >>>>> inheritance, ID cards, passports etc. This certificate may be issued >>>>> at various time periods if proof of birth is required for legal >>>>> matters in the future and that is why the priests numbered them. >>>>> >>>>> other notes: marriage and/or death of the individual, usually showing >>>>> date of marriage or death, with file/archive numbers and signed by the >>>>> priest. >>>>> >>>>> Anything related to Victorina would be noted on Victorina's baptismal >>>>> record. >>>>> >>>>> Hope this helps, >>>>> Margaret Vicente >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11/2/12, Diane <ddo...@bigpond.net.au> wrote: >>>>> > Hi Margaret >>>>> > >>>>> > What does the notation mean then? does it mean that this Victorina >>>>> died in >>>>> > 1871??? Please excuse my ignorance, still learning. >>>>> > >>>>> > thanks for the link - yes I already had that one. >>>>> > >>>>> > Diane >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > On Friday, 2 November 2012 11:25:25 UTC+10:30, Mara wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> >> No, that's not it Diane. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> 1a. certidao em 16 de Outubro 1871. Translated - First >>>>> certificate on >>>>> >> 16-Oct-1871 >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I also found this, don't if you already have manuel's birth record, >>>>> child >>>>> >> >>>>> >> of Christiano and Victorina. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> http://culturacores.azores.**gov**.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-**VL-* >>>>> *URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-**VL-**URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/**P88** >>>>> .html<http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/P88.html> >>>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Diane <ddo...@bigpond.net.au >>>>> >> <javascript:> >>>>> >> > wrote: >>>>> >> >>>>> >>> I think I have just made the link that confirms that she is the >>>>> same >>>>> >>> person. there is a notation in the margin of her son's baptism >>>>> record and >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> appears to be the recording of her death. Being new to this >>>>> research I >>>>> >>> had >>>>> >>> not taken much notice of it before. It appears to be 16 Sept ?? >>>>> which is >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> the same date as the obit of Victorina Constancia. Can anyone >>>>> please >>>>> >>> confirm the date on this notation. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> http://culturacores.azores.**gov**.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-**VL- >>>>> **URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-**VL-**URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/**P65** >>>>> .html<http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/P65.html> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> I also looked up the meaning of Constancia and found it means >>>>> steadfast. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> thank you >>>>> >>> Diane >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> On Friday, 2 November 2012 07:58:39 UTC+10:30, Diane wrote: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>>> Sorry this may have beem misleading. I meant that she was >>>>> "Victorina >>>>> >>>> Rosa" on her marriage and the baptism of her sons. >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> Diane >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>> On Friday, 2 November 2012 07:56:54 UTC+10:30, Diane wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you to Cheri, Marcio and Mara for your replies. I do have >>>>> most >>>>> >>>>> of those other records and the only thing that didn't fit was >>>>> >>>>> "Constancia". >>>>> >>>>> She is "Rosa" on her marriage and the baptism of her sons in >>>>> 1850 and >>>>> >>>>> 1853. >>>>> >>>>> On her baptism and Christiano's second marriage record, she is >>>>> just >>>>> >>>>> Victorina. The age at death on this obit is correct for my >>>>> Victorina >>>>> >>>>> too - >>>>> >>>>> 28. I don't see those names appearing together anywhere else. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Does the name Constancia have any significant meaning? It may >>>>> have >>>>> >>>>> meant something to the family after she died?? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Victorina may have had grandchildren born in the Azores to her >>>>> second >>>>> >>>>> son. I haven't found them yet. My line were all born in Sydney >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> those >>>>> >>>>> records do not show grandparents. When her son Joaquim married >>>>> in >>>>> >>>>> Sydney in >>>>> >>>>> 1884 (after living together for years) his parents are stated as >>>>> >>>>> Victoria >>>>> >>>>> Rosa and Christian Mitchell (Mitchell was Joaquim's new assumed >>>>> surname >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> name in Australia). I knew that his mother died when he was a >>>>> child and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> that he had a stepmother and we still have the letters she wrote >>>>> to him >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> from Urzelina - signed off as Perpetua Rosa (she was Victorina's >>>>> sister >>>>> >>>>> and >>>>> >>>>> their mother was Victorina de Jesus from Urzelina). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It all seems very sad, but I too think I have the right one >>>>> because >>>>> >>>>> there is no other Victorina obit in that time period that I can >>>>> see. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On further question: Was it common for couples to live together >>>>> outside >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> of marriage in those villages? This family of mine were very >>>>> devout >>>>> >>>>> Catholics and if this is the right Victorina, it means that >>>>> Christiano >>>>> >>>>> was >>>>> >>>>> single with 2 very young children for about 10 years before he >>>>> >>>>> remarried. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks again. >>>>> >>>>> Diane Donnon >>>>> >>>>> South Autralia >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, 2 November 2012 03:12:29 UTC+10:30, Cheri Mello >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Diane D, >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> It's probably her. Do you find any other Victorina (Rosa or >>>>> >>>>>> Constancia) having babies with another Cristiano Machado (or >>>>> Machado >>>>> >>>>>> Pereira)? If you don't find another Cristiano/Vitorina couple, >>>>> then >>>>> >>>>>> that's >>>>> >>>>>> your Vitorina's obit. You can also look for Cristiano's 2nd >>>>> marriage >>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>> >>>>>> see what they call Vitorina (he'll be a widower of Vitorina >>>>> ___). You >>>>> >>>>>> have >>>>> >>>>>> her on all the kids' baptisms as Vitorina Constancia? What >>>>> about all >>>>> >>>>>> of >>>>> >>>>>> her biological grandkids? How do they list her at their >>>>> baptism? >>>>> >>>>>> Cheri Mello >>>>> >>>>>> Listowner, Azores-Gen >>>>> >>>>>> Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira >>>>> das >>>>> >>>>>> Tainhas, Achada >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> >>> azores+un...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. Follow the >>>>> confirmation >>>>> >>> directions when they arrive. >>>>> >>> For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or >>>>> No Mail >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group >>>>> at >>>>> >>> http://groups.google.com/**group**/Azores<http://groups.google.com/group/Azores>. >>>>> >>> >>>>> Click in the blue area on the >>>>> >>> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my >>>>> >>> membership." >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> -- >>>>> >> Margaret M Vicente >>>>> >> >>>>> > >>>>> > -- >>>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> > Azores+un...@**googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation >>>>> directions >>>>> > when they arrive. >>>>> > For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No >>>>> Mail >>>>> > (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group >>>>> at >>>>> > http://groups.google.com/**group**/Azores<http://groups.google.com/group/Azores>. >>>>> > >>>>> Click in the blue area on the right >>>>> > that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my >>>>> membership." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Margaret M Vicente >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to Azores+un...@** >>>> googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. >>>> For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No >>>> Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/**group/Azores<http://groups.google.com/group/Azores>. >>>> >>>> Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it >>>> will >>>> take you to "Edit my membership." >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Margaret M Vicente >>> >> -- >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> azores+un...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. Follow the confirmation >> directions when they arrive. >> For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail >> (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the >> right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my >> membership." >> > > > > -- > Margaret M Vicente > -- To unsubscribe from this group, send email to azores+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. Follow the confirmation directions when they arrive. For more options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation) mode, log into your Google account and visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Azores. Click in the blue area on the right that says "Join this group" and it will take you to "Edit my membership."
