George, I am often struck by how things I write are blatantly ignored by the members of BH. Take for example this statement: "2. The concept of פרד usually indicates division into dispersion or spreading out. How does this fit your proposed etymology?"
The uses of the verb PaRaD are as I stated before and below. Other than Esther 3:8 (m'phorad) all of them mean one or more things "separated from" others. It is only in Esther that your definition of "dispersion / spreading out" can be found. If you would, please justify / explain your statement with concrete references from the Tanakh. paal: to separate, divide (Gn2:10); niphal: be aloof (Pr18:1); deserted (Pr19:4) piel: to go off to the side (Hs4:14) hiphil: to separate, set apart (Gn13:9;30:40)(KgII2:11)(Pr16:28) hitpael: (moved aside) to be out of joint (Ps22:15;92:10) A PaRDaeS is an area that is set apart from another. As for the Samekh, how do you explain the samekh in S'PhaRaD = spain, Have you never heard someone explain its etymology as "a land set far off" What is the earliest documented source of the use of the Persian equivalent? As for my oblique concept that Iron might be of primary use in making holes, I refer you to the wikipedia entry for iron: " Meteoric iron....was often used to forge weapons and tools...Items that were likely made of iron by Egyptians date from 2500 to 3000 BC.[30] Iron had a distinct advantage over bronze in warfare implements. It was much harder and more durable than bronze," As far as I know the goal of a weapon is to incapacitate an enemy by making holes. I could be wrong but most tools of that time had the function of smashing, shaping (a form of smashing) and making holes. Cordially, David Kolinsky Monterey CA --- On Tue, 3/8/11, George Athas <[email protected]> wrote: From: George Athas <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [b-hebrew] Fw: Re: Pardaes and barzel To: "B-Hebrew" <[email protected]> Date: Tuesday, March 8, 2011, 10:19 PM Hi David! There are many issues with your proposal for פרדס. 1. If the underlying root is פרד, where did the samekh come from? This is completely irregular in Hebrew. 2. The concept of פרד usually indicates division into dispersion or spreading out. How does this fit your proposed etymology? And again, whence the samekh? 3. I think you'll find that פרדס is unattested in any other Semitic language before a late date. 4. It's much easier to explain the vocalisation shifts from Persian into Aramaic and then into Hebrew, than to propose a Hebrew original that moves into the other languages. 5. If the word is originally Hebrew, how did it disseminate into Persian? What's the connection there? As for your proposal on ברזל: 1. The root ברז means to make a hole. I'm not sure how this is explicitly related to iron. I'm guessing you're seeing iron as a tool for making holes, but this is somewhat oblique in my opinion. But that's just my opinion. 2. The ברז theory does not have many subscribers in the scholarly world, probably because the word just doesn't look Semitic. And if it doesn't look Semitic, and it can be explained as a loanword, then we have to consider seriously the likelihood that it's actually a loanword. 3. It has been argued (thought I can't remember by whom) that there is an underlying Hittite word. This would make sense historically, since knowledge of working iron probably came from the northern regions where the Hittites were. GEORGE ATHAS Moore Theological College (Sydney, Australia) www.moore.edu.au _______________________________________________ b-hebrew mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew _______________________________________________ b-hebrew mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
