Hi John, As for software (@2), Ari Kinsberg from the list used "bar ilan's mikra'ot gedolot ha-keter" for answering a question on accents last year:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah_database#Mikra.27ot_Gedolot_Haketer http://www.biupress.co.il/website_en/index.asp?id=447 http://jtslibrarytakeaway.blogspot.com/2010/06/new-resource-mikraot-gedolot-haketer-on.html I don't know much about it, but it seems to have an innovative and user friendly search function for morphological details. If you are a tech guy without money you may use Regular Expressions (http://www.regular-expressions.info) to search for patterns in Westminster Leningrad Codex (http://www.tanach.us) or BDB (https://github.com/openscriptures/HebrewLexicon). Regards, Daniel Lundsgaard Skovenborg ----- Original Message ----- > From: John C.P. Smith <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Cc: > Sent: Friday, June 15, 2012 10:14 PM > Subject: [b-hebrew] Tevel > > Shalom! > > > > I am a new member of the B-Hebrew list. I hold a BA Hons degree in Hebrew > and Jewish History from University College London (1989-1993). I have taught > introductory–intermediate Biblical and Modern Hebrew. I write and teach > Hebrew word-studies, using BibleWorks 7 for my research. > > > > Currently, in preparing an article on erets and tevel, with reference to > tevel I searched the internet for “tsere tsere vowel patterns” and came > across some correspondence on B-Hebrew last year (see below). > > > > I have a few questions: > > 1) Apart from tevel (36 occurrences in the Hebrew Bible), cheresh (9 > occurrences), and Tevet (Esther 2:16), do you know of any other Biblical > Hebrew words (or even Modern Hebrew words) with the tsere-tsere vowel > pattern? > > > > 2) As a matter of interest, do you know of a program for searching on > vowel patterns (without consonants)? Or do I need to just manually read > through word lists? > > > > 3) Tevel only ever occurs without the definite article. Is this unique? > Do you know of any other common nouns like this? > > > > 4) What would you expect the construct state pattern to be for a > tsere-tsere noun? It’s not possible to compare with the other above Biblical > examples, since cheresh is an adjective and Tevet is a proper noun. > Personally, I would expect the first tsere to reduce to a voiced sheva, > hence, t'vel. Would you agree? > > > > 5) Out of the 36 occurrences of tevel in the Bible, BibleWorks > identifies 3 as being in the construct state, Psalm 98:7 and 9 (both of > which appear to be erroneously labelled), and Proverbs 8:31 (literally, > "Rejoicing in tevel His erets. . .") which seems to me more likely to > be in > the absolute state. In addition to Proverbs 8:31, F. Brown (The New > Brown–Driver–Briggs–Gesenius Hebrew and English Lexicon, Peabody, > Massachusetts: Hendrickson Publishers, Inc., 1979) cites just one further > example of tevel in the construct state (p. 385): Job 37:12 (literally, ". > . > . upon [the] face of tevel towards erets") which again seems to me more > likely to be in the absolute state. In other words, as far as I can tell > tevel doesn’t actually occur in the construct state. Would you agree? > > > > 6) Nir Cohen says that tevel has “an astronomical connotation”. What do > you mean by this? > > > > 7) Putting all of this evidence together, if confirmed by your answers > it seems to me that tevel is actually a proper noun (and not a common noun, > as it is usually listed in lexicons)—a poetic name for earth, in much the > same way in which we name the planets in the solar system, e.g. Jupiter and > Venus. Do you think that this is a possibility? Is so, do you know of any > other supporting evidence? > > > > I would be extremely grateful for any response you are able to give, even a > brief one if you are busy. > > > > Yours most sincerely, > > > > John > > > > John C.P. Smith > > BA Hons, Hebrew and Jewish History (University College London, 1993) > > United Kingdom > > > > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > > > > Nir, > > I'm focusing my attention onto this word kind and not onto words with > segol-segol. > > Concerning nouns with tsere-tsere --------> there are more than those you > say. And so, XR$, deaf (Ex 4:11) and other that are not found in the Bible. > > Now, nouns with tsere-segol I found recently the complete list of this noun > type -no matter they appear in the bible or not-. This list consists of > around 60 nouns and these are the ONLY to fit this vowel pattern within the > whole of the Hebrew language. > > But I intended to find an answer to this question: is there a common > denominator to these 60 nouns? > > As I wrote in a preceding post, I am ready to send that list to those who > are interested in the issue (preferably by private mail, unless moderators > of this forum think that it can be of a general interest for the list > members) > > Regards > > Pere Porta > (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain) > > 2011/5/3 Nir cohen - Prof. Mat. <nir at ccet.ufrn.br > <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> > > >> dear pere, >> >> the type of questions you have been asking relate to post-masoretic > hebrew, >> i.e. involves shoresh AND niqud. there is nothing wrong with this, except >> (as is becoming clear (for me) from recent correspondence) you are >> considering >> a dialect consolidated over a very long time. so, i dont know >> if you can expect very clear-cut answers or a single logic behind the >> words. >> >> my best shot is this: words with cere-segol are true nouns derived from >> verbs, and allow the plural. they contain all 3 letters of a recognized >> hebrew root. and stress on the 1st syllable >> >> the small set of words with cere-cere may have originated from other word >> constructions which do not allow the plural: teveth (the name of a month), >> and >> tevel (there is only one...). they do not coincide with the three >> letters of a recognized hebrew root (unless the late TBL=spice is included >> as a root; even there, hebrew makes an exception and calls it TAVLIYN). >> and stress on the second syllable. >> >> what these alleged "other constructions" were, i cannot imagine. > as i >> fail to see agriculture in the semitic (lunar!) months, i can only >> imagine TEVETH to have an astronomical connotation - by the way, >> so does TEVEL... >> >> i also wonder why you consider those and not, for example, segol-segol. >> >> best >> nir cohen >> >> >> >> >>>> De: Pere Porta <pporta7 at gmail.com > <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> > >> Cópia: Hebrew <b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org > <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> > >> Para: Randall Buth <randallbuth at gmail.com > <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> > >> Data: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:05:21 +0200 >> Assunto: Re: [b-hebrew] Tevel vs Evel >> Dear b-hebrew listees, >> I'm doing a comparison between several noun types in order to make some >> systematization of their patterns. >> I find nouns consisting of three root letters with tsere in the first and >> tsere in the second. >> And so, TBL, world (Ps 19:5) or TB+, Tebeth (a month of the year) (Est >> 2:16) >> And I find nouns consisting of three root letters with tsere in the first >> but with segol in the second: >> )BL, mourning (2Sa 14:2) >> SFR, book (2Sa 1:18) >> $B+, tribe (Gn 49:10) >> Can anyone provide a good reason of this different pattern? >> I mean: not *"the Hebrew language is like this*", but, so to say, > an >> "internal" reason. >> --Have nouns tsere-tsere a feature common to all them? >> --Have nouns tsere-segol a feature common to all them, a common >> denominator? >> --Could we, given this and this and this root consonants, know in advance >> which pattern (tsere-tsere or tsere-segol) the resulting noun would fit if >> both vowel sounds are to be 'e'? >> Friendly, >> Pere Porta >> (Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> b-hebrew mailing list >> b-hebrew at lists.ibiblio.org > <http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew> >> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew >> > > > > -- > Pere Porta > > > > _______________________________________________ > b-hebrew mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew > _______________________________________________ b-hebrew mailing list [email protected] http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
