Ruth: As usual, you bring up good points to consider.
On Sun, Sep 8, 2013 at 4:18 AM, Ruth Mathys <[email protected]> wrote: > Karl, > > > I don¹t reject TAM as a tool for understanding languages. What I say is > > that it¹s too limited. It doesn¹t explain the patterns observed in > Biblical > > Hebrew. > > IMHO TAM is not a model, it's a checklist of things to look for when > investigating verbs. > This is a more accurate way to describe how I use TAM in practice. When I come to tense, defined as “Tense is a grammatical category, typically marked on the verb<http://www-01.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOflinguisticTerms/WhatIsAVerbLinguistics.htm>, that deictically<http://www-01.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOflinguisticTerms/WhatIsDeixis.htm> refers to the time of the event or state denoted by the verb in relation to some other temporal reference point.” ( http://www-01.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOflinguisticTerms/WhatIsTense.htm)I by seat-of-the-pants familiarity with the text, Rolf by statistical analysis, come to the same conclusion that this category is checked “no”. If Hebrew verbs aren't marked for TAM, they must be communicating something > else. I went looking for a simple list of things that verbs typically can > mark (cross-linguistically), and found this useful site: > > http://www.grammaticalfeatures.net/index.html > > The author lists the following features that can be marked on verbs: > > - gender > - number > - person > - respect (honorifics, politeness) > - tense > - aspect > - mood > - polarity (assertion vs negation) > - transitivity > - voice > - evidentiality (what is the source of information?) > - manner and circumstance (e.g. while standing up, only a little bit, > towards the jungle, in the evening) > > A good, but still incomplete, list. > > A number of these could be lumped together into a mega-category of "ways > that a verb marks what are the significant participants in the event, and > how they are involved in it". In Hebrew that includes subject agreement, > object suffixes and the binyanim (marking transitivity/voice). But the > subject agreement markers come in two clearly defined sets which are > independent of the binyan distinction. So there must be another variable > at > work. Looking through the above list, it's pretty clear to me that this > other variable is something in the tense-aspect-mood constellation -- which > is also to be expected given how common it is, cross-linguistically, for > these features to be marked on verbs. > Here, as I also mentioned to Nir, you are going backwards—defining first the categories you’ll accept, then shoehorning Biblical Hebrew into that procrustean shoe (like Cinderella’s step-sisters cutting off their toes to make their feet fit in Cinderella’s shoe). Taking that subset of the list above, I find for Biblical Hebrew: Tense — no Aspect — no Mood — sometimes Therefore we need to consider other options, don’t limit ourselves to these three. > > The reason these three features are commonly grouped together by the > acronym > TAM is because they are so often mixed up within a given language, with the > same grammatical marker having components of more than one feature. Do > they > have something in common that leads the human mind to lump them together? > -- > they all communicate something about the relationship between the event and > 'reality'? How come marking location in time is so much more common than > marking location in space??? > The verbal conjugations are not the only ways to locate the action in time. Biblical Hebrew is not the only language that doesn’t conjugate location in time. But that doesn’t mean that the ancient Hebrews were unaware of time, rather they indicated time through other contextual tools. > > I think, Karl, that your understanding of Hebrew verbs does fall within the > TAM category, but it's a pretty big category with plenty of space for > different perspectives. > Describe what you mean, keeping within the definitions found on the SIL site, or giving reasons why the SIL glosses shouldn’t be followed. > > Are there any other meaning possibilities for the Hebrew verb that aren't > on > the list above? Rocine argues (if I understand him correctly) that > wayyiqtol forms focus on the event itself and qatal forms treat the event > as > an attribute of the subject. But that seems weird to me because I thought > finite verbs of any kind focus on the event, and it's participles that > treat > an event as an attribute. But it's worth a thought. > > I have to agree with you that Rocine’s description doesn’t seem to fit, but his guesses are his answer to the inadequacy of the TAM check-list to describe the Biblical Hebrew conjugations. > > > A prime example is Proverbs 31:1031‹with the exception of the first > > Yiqtol, all the other verbs in that section are in the context of present > > tense, imperfective aspect, indicative modality. Yet there is a regular > > pattern that explains the use of the Qatal and Yiqtol verb conjugations, > a > > pattern that isn¹t described by TAM. > > > > When we take the pattern as evidenced by this Proverbs passage, and apply > > it to most of the Yiqtols (and Wayiqtols) found in narrative, we find it > > fits without resorting to tense. Tense is told not by the conjugation, > but > > by the context. > > Karl, you keep asserting that this passage refers to present time, but it > doesn't -- unless you believe that the narrator of the passage is an > eye-witness giving a play-by-play description of a particular woman's > actions. You agree that the passage is gnomic, and by definition a gnomic > utterance is timeless. It's the difference between "The eagle is circling > to swoop on its prey" (present reference) and "The early bird catches the > worm" (timeless). > I agree with you that it is gnomic, but by definition gnomic includes the present tense. It is to that that I refer. Further the list in this passage refers to what she does now, not what she did in the past nor what she will do in the future. > > At least in English, just about any verb form can be used in a gnomic > context and still maintain the timelessness (obviously this may not apply > to > Hebrew, but that's something you would have to prove). Like this: > > Listen (imperative) to my thinking (gerund) about the ideal wife. > She would be (some sort of modal) someone who always makes your > life good (present). She studied (simple past) hard at school, and > she encourages (present) her children to do (infinitive) the same. > She's always helping (present continuous) other people. Once you > have married (perfect) her, you will never regret it (future). > > And so on. > > I'm actually not sure what kind of genre context could conclusively rule > out > temporal reference as part of a verb form's meaning. You'd have to > carefully control for every variety of syntactic context within the overall > genre context. > This is where you need to look at the total corpus of the available material, not just a subset thereof. It’s based on the reading of Tanakh cover to cover several times that I come to the conclusion that TAM is inadequate and inaccurate to describe Biblical Hebrew conjugations. > > BTW you can use the English future perfect to refer to the past: > > A: What time is Donna's flight due in? > B: 10 minutes ago. > A: Oh, then she'll have already got back by now. > > There's some modal nuance in there, but that's why it's called TAM -- > because the three strands are so difficult to separate in practice. > > > Ruth > Karl W. Randolph.
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