On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 14:01:15 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Gilberto, > > At 01:27 PM 1/16/2005, you wrote: > >>But self-defined fundamentalist Christians who actually believe that > >>Catholics aren't Christian are themselves a marginalized group.<<
Mark: > I am afraid I don't understand your response to what I wrote. I thought we > were addressing approaches to prophetology, not marginalization. Gilberto: Correct Mark: > In any event, marginalization is relative. Roman Catholics have been > marginalized for some time in Russia. They are obviously not marginalized in > Italy or the Republic of Ireland. Gilberto: Yes. I don't mean just political oppression in a local context. I mean where they fit in the large scheme of Christiainities in the world. Virtually any kind of statement along the lines of "Muslims believe.." or "Christians believe..." will be a generalization. But in life we make certain generalizations just in order to speak, and point to trends. In the context of discussing Christianities. Roman Catholicism is going to represent a large near-typical mass of Christians because the majority of Christians are Catholic. A small fundamentalist church which calls Catholics non-Christian, while part of the picture, and deserving mention, are certainly not representative of world Christianity. Gilberto: > >>I gave you a specific example. Of at least one possible way to do it. > >>According to some Muslim scholars, a "nabi" is anyone who has received > >>revelation.<< > Based on that definition, no pentecostals I have ever known would equate > prophecy with receiving anything like wahy (thought there may be some). Rev. > Moon's and Swedenborg's views could perhaps be regarded as closer to wahy. I > have also personally known a couple of Muslim Sufis who claimed to receive > "revelations." Gilberto: So how are you defining "revelations" and on what basis would you say that the Muslim Sufis you claimed to receive revelation but Pentecostals wouldn't? > >>And so, for example Mary is seen by some as a prophet because of the > >>Annunciation. Gabriel appeared to her with a message, and gave her an > >>invitation to her own baby shower. Right? Moses' mother received revelation > >>to put her son in the water.<< Mark: > I don't know whether they were prophets. Gilberto: It doesn't matter. They aren't the issue. Its just an example to try to outline what the content of the concept of "nabi" might or might not include. Gilberto: > >>So in which case, Muslims are saying no more nabis are coming, while > >>Catholics and others are saying that such people continue to appear.<< Mark: > Some Muslims are saying that more prophets (at least one more) are coming. Gilberto: Coming back. Mark: I am unwilling to universalize (beyond the paradigms) the common Sunni view that Qadianis are not Muslims, just as I am unwilling to universalize the common fundamentalist view that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians. Gilberto: Yes. That's understandable. I certainly wouldn't want to say that Jehovah's Witnesses are not Christians. Gilberto: Actually, that reminds me of an unrelated point which might be illuminating about other issues. Apparently the Bahai writings have some negative things to say about Arius. Which surprised me because from my perspective and the perspective of alot of Muslims who heard about him, he's seen as a step in the right direction (because he was an early Christian clergyman who did not believe Jesus was God) although in other respects he had an exalted view of Jesus). At some point, Arianism was even the official interpretation of Christianity for the Empire. But what is weird to me is that Arius' views seem even closer to the Bahai perspective than the Muslim perspective (Arius still called Jesus the Son, said he was the first thing in creation) But Arius is criticized in the writings. http://bahai-library.com/?file=uhj_tablet_abdulbaha_arius.html It seems that in the Bahai faith unity is more important than truth. I don't know. I guess that's my take on it. Gilberto: > >>If you up the requirement and say a "nabi" is someone who receives > >>revelation of a message meant for a larger audience. Then Muslims are still > >>saying no more nabis are coming.<< > Mark: > Some Muslims, not all. > Gilberto: Yes, not all, just sunnis, shias, and khawarij. I think philosophically your point is in some sense "too deep" for us to have a conversation because if you absolutely refuse to make any kind of generalization then it is hard to say anything at all. I am actually comfortable with that idea and would insist on it if we were in a math class because categorical statements are only true if they are absolutely true. But in the rest of the world such a standard tends to put an end to conversation. Gilberto: > >>But in the Catholic case you still have something like the secrets of > >>Fatima which deals with world-wide events like the fall of communism etc.<< Mark: > Just because the word "revelation" may be used does not indicate that the > meaning is the same. Some Roman Catholics may use the word "revelation" to > describe Fatima, Lourdes, etc. However, as with most Muslims, they would not, > for the most part, place personal experiences are on the same level as those > of Christ Himself. Gilberto: But there aren't just two levels. The concepts of revelation different in kind and extent. Alot of these Catholic examples are specific verbal messages which are said to come from God and are delivered to the world. Speaking in tongues is something similar. Where the perception is that the words are coming from outside the person, and the person having the experience might not even know what the words mean until later. That sounds alot closer to the descriptions of what Muhammad experienced during moments of revelation. And it is much easier to come with different kinds of specific examples in Christian contexts. It is significantly harder to come up with different kinds of specific examples in Muslim contexts. Gilberto: > >>It's common for Quakers in the sense that everyone has the inner light. > >>It's common among pentecostals because there are many people who would have > >>the experience of speaking in tongues and claiming to get messages from God > >>that way. Sufis say certain phenomena are possible but I wouldn't call them > >>common. It's like a miracle given to saints, not necessarily everyone who > >>joins the order.<< Mark: > So you are basing your argument on frequency? Gilberto: What do you think my argument is? > >>Not just stopping there but because it [use of the word prophet] indicates > >>an underlying difference.<< Mark: > I don't think that words indicate anything but the use of those words. > Gilberto: That's a larger point which doesn't really address the particulars of what I've been trying to get across. What you are talking about is a certain belief about communication and language which rule out both my position and the negation of my position. So from a certain point of view, it's not that interesting when one is actually in the middle of a discussion or debate. So have you seen Ghost Dog yet? Gilberto: > >>Thanks for including the link. That description is from an anti-Sufi > >>website which is trying to descredit Sufism as a whole and isn't a reliable > >>source of information about Sufism. The author is accusing Sufis of > >>claiming revelation as a way of refuting them.<< > > What about the following: > > "Every time he [Bayazid] had a Divine revelation, he fasten a zunar (a Sufi > belt) and he had over seventy zunar. When the time of his passing was close, > he went to the altar, put on one zunar, an old reversed rob, backward hat and > said: Oh, Allah, this is how I see myself. I am not offering You my life's > mortification, my constant prayers, my day and night fasting, You know that > nothing will take me from You. I confess that I am shameful, I have nothing, > You are the One who has given me all this fortune. I witness that there is no > god but You. Your have accepted me. Purify me from my errors, forgive my > faults, wash away my shortcomings." Gilberto: So what do you think "revelation" means there? What kind of assumptions are you making just because of the same word (in English)? Peace Gilberto "My people are hydroponic" __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
