On 5/11/06, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilberto Simpson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Baha'i Studies" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2006 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: question about Islam
On 5/11/06, Richard H. Gravelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Gilberto:
> > Ok. So why do you seem so hesitant and reluctant towards recognizing
> > the validity [of] this capacity?
Richard:
> There can be no hesitation in the recognition of what God has created. My
> question to you is: If you imply that these "intrinsic values" are
> self-sustaining", i.e. exist without the Revelation of them by God, how
then did they come to be?
Gilberto:
Doesn't your conscience also come from God?
Richard:
> For surely if they arose out of the consciences of
> man, then they arose out of what is under the control of God. Any value
> imparted to them must have come from God. Yet you seem to assert that God
> is not necessary for man to reason or understand.
Gilberto:
Where do you read that? Where did I say God is not necessary?
Gilberto:
I think you are assuming things which I'm not saying nor intending.
God is the ultimate source of everything. I think I would take that
for granted. But then he gives us certain faculties as well which we
can use to appreciate the creation.
Richard:
'A statement which is undisputed. I would add however that the primary
reason fo that capacity is so that we may recognise God.
Gilberto:
I'm not sure why you would limit it.
Gilberto:
And again, in particular, before Bahaullah declared that slavery was
prohibited, it was possible for morally sensitive human beings to see
how the institution was being implemented, and could see the
brutality, and suffering and greed which was at the root, and so they
could see that slavery was morally problematic without having to be
told.
Richard:
How can a man declare that refusing to do what God has permitted is virtuous
because what God has permitted is violative of the "intrinsic moral value"
of human life? It is impossible. Human life has no value except that which
God Himself has declared.
If, on the other hand, should God reveal that slavery is permitted; but it
is better for a man not to hold an human as a slave, then there would be
virtue in not holding slaves, while such an act is permitted.
Gilberto:
I think you are looking at this *really* legalistically in a way
which I honestly find surprising. Even if I had a book which said
"slavery is A-OK" and then saw a slavery system where people were
kidnapped, families broken apart, people were being beaten,
mistreated, dehumanized, tortured, abused, overworked to death, etc.
and corrupted even the "masters" who were in charge, you should start
to wonder about the morality of such an institution.
The point is that man cannot declare "intrinsic value" or "moral value"
without a supporting Revelation from God. Your example, in my opinion,
demonstrates no supporting Revelation from God.
I think you are being legalistic.
-Gilberto
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