I don't think we are getting anywhere. So, I will try to wind down.
Gilberto keeps distorting things, as usual. Anyway, ..
On Thu, 11 May 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
> On 5/10/06, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 May 2006, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
>
> > > On 5/9/06, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > No, that kind of democracy is just ludicrous. Keep it to yourself and
> > > > enjoy it when Shi`ah kills Sunni in Iraq and Sunnis kill Shi`ahs there
> > > > as
> > > > they have done it since the 7th century. And all in the name of
> > > > religion.
>
> Gilberto:
> > > If this is a religious issue (and not a political issue or a
> > > cultural issue) then why do Sunnis and Shias kill each other in
> > > Iraq but not on the southside of Chicago?
>
> I:
> > What has that got to do with the issue. There does not have to be a global
> > wafare and killing between Sunni and Shi`ah. The sectarian violence and
> > hatred between the Shi`ah and the Sunni Muslims is definitely religious
> > and goes back 1400 years.
>
> Sometimes conflicts which are really about other things, *look*
> religious, but in reality something else is going on. For example the
> violence in Northern Ireland *looked* like it was about religion but
> is really about land and economics. You could say similar things about
> the violence in Palestine between Jews and Muslims.
>
Conflicts between Sunni and Shi`ah are definitely religious; and they have
been religious since day 1, 1400 years ago.
The other day, I was listening to another news report on NPR about the
sectarian violence in Iraq: now people are changing their names. Why?
Because some names are easily identifiable as either Sunni or Shi`ah. The
guy was saying that one day about half dozen bodies were discovered. They
were taken to the morgue. They all had the same first name: `Umar. They
were all killed because they were Sunnis.
For the last 27 years, the Sunni community of Tehran has been trying a
bulid a modest Sunni mosque in Tehran. No luck yet. Constant obstacles and
roadblocks, etc., etc.
> > No, it's not cultural or political. I can't
> > understand why you are dismissing and minimizing the lethality of
> > religious sectarian violence between Shi`ah and Sunni Islam...
>
> I'm not dismissing the lethality. People are definitely dying.
>
> and trying to
> > explain it away as a non-religious issue. There are a number of reasons
> > why Shi`ah/Sunni killing doesn't occur in Chicago.
>
> Like?
>
You definitely are minimizing the significance of the intense religious
hatred between Shi`ah and Sunni, between Muslim and non-Muslim.
Shi`ah-Sunni killing hasn't occurred in Chicago yet; but New York City,
London, Madrid, Russia, etc. has definitely seen the barbarity of militant
Islam and Muslim violence. All of these acts in Iraq, London, Indonesia,
etc., are perpeterated by Muslims, devout Muslims, Muslims who don't miss
their prayers and fasting, Muslims who quote to you verses from your own
Book to justify their actions. And in your "democratic" Muslim society,
you have to consider them as Muslims as Khomeini, as Rumi, as Ibn-Taymih,
as anyone else. But, unfortunately, this violent face of Islam is not new.
It goes back to mid 7th century. You keep minimizing it.
Maybe Chicago is a civilized city, with some law and order, that makes it
impermissible for Sunni-Shi`ah killing.
> > > [..]
> > > > > Iskandar:
> > > > > > I'm not talking about metaphysical statements. I'm talking about
> > > > > > real
> > > > > > concrete actions by Muslim leaders, scholars, jurists, etc.,
> > > > > > throughout history.
> > >
> > > > > Gilberto:
> > > > > And people generally take on those violent actions because of their
> > > > > motivations. That's the fundamental issue. Promoting unity doesn't
> > > > > eliminate the problem. It just will tend to promote uniformity and
> > > > > oppression on a larger scale.
> > >
> > > Iskandar:
> > > > And where do their motivations come from?
> > >
> > > Gilberto:
> > > Greed is a big part of it.
>
> Iskandar:
> > What has greed got to do with whether you believe Omar was a usurper or
> > not. The root cause of the sectarian violence goes back to what happened
> > after the Prophet Muhammad passed away and succession became an issue.
>
> Gilberto:
> No. That's just a superficial excuse. No two human beings are going to
> be in perfect agreement about everything. Disagreement is a part of
> life. It is a part of having your own unique mind. People will always
> disagree. About religion. About politics. About literature. About
> sports teams. Anything. But that doesn't mean they are going to fight
> about their differences.
>
> I"m sunni but I don't have any particular hatred for Shia. But I'm not
> one. And that's as far as it goes. If sunnis and shias in the middle
> east or in India are having trouble living peacefully together, it's
> not because their religion tells them to go kill each other. How do I
> know this? Because I have the same religion they do.
>
>
> -G
>
>
---------------
The issue of who was the rightful successor to the Prophet Muhammad is
a superficial issue? That's the root cause of all the sectarian violence
between Sunni and Shi`ah Islam for 1400 years, man.
So what if you haven't killed another Shi`ah yet? Muslim scholars have
throughout history initiated religious and/or sectarian warfare, they
pronounced death sentence against other Muslims or other non-Muslims. This
is what has been happening. And it's unfortunately happening now. Wake up
Gilberto.
Iskandar
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