The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm concerned that you are so eager to lump all Muslims together as bad people who hate Baha'is, when you are talking to two simultaneously who don't. Do you want Muslims to hate you or something?
On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 8:01 AM, Iskandar Hai, M.D. <iskandar....@gmail.com>wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Well, I seriously doubt if the Quran verse 9:28 was meant to be understood > spiritually back then at that time when it was revealed in early 7th century > because it is reassuring the early Muslims not to worry about the loss of > trade and business with the Meccans. This is manifestly obvious. But it > would be nice if it is understood and read metaphorically nowadays by all > Muslims regarding Baha'is or regarding folks who don't believe in God, or > people who don't believe in any religion, or Buddhists or Hindus, etc. Alas, > that's not the case. > > > > Best regards > Iskandar > > > > > > > Sent from my iPod > > On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Gilberto Simpson <gilberto.simp...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Susan, I don't think you understood what I said. >> >> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 1:57 AM, Susan Maneck <sman...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >>> >>>> I would definitely read that ayat spiritually. (And it is my >>>> >>>> understanding that that is the typical Hanafi view at least). >>>> >>> >> I would too. The issue here was clearly profaning a holy site. >>> >> >> No. The verse in question is: >> [Yusufali 9:28] O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let >> them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And >> if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of >> His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise. >> >> And what I'm saying is that in the Hanafi view (note that the Hanafis >> are the most populous interpretation of Sunni Islam... the Ottomans >> and the Mughals were Hanafi), in the above verse, Pagans are being >> described as unclean in a spiritual sense. NOT in a physical sense and >> not in a sense that relates to laws about najas (ritual impurity) and >> should not be used to justify a social system where non-Muslims have >> cooties. >> >> >> Personally Muslims do not offend me by not letting me go to Mecca any >>> more than Zoroastrians offend me by not letting me into their Fire >>> Temples. However, when a Jew or a Zoroastrian can't go out when it is >>> raining for fear he will rub up against a Muslim and pollute them, >>> that is another question. >>> >> >> Sure. And that particular interpretation was limited to a particular >> time and a particular place in a particular culture. And other Muslims >> in most other places in most other times interpreted those rules >> differently. So that suggest, instead of blaming all Muslims >> everywhere you should focus on what factors in Safavid society led >> them to set up a system which discriminated against people in those >> particular ways. >> >> (And do >>> >>>> you think that Bahais count as Idolaters?) >>>> >>> >>> The question really is how do Muslims regard us? As you know, this >>> verse came to be applied to all non-Muslims even the Ahl-i Kitab. >>> >> >> The Saudis apply the law that way but there are definitely ulema which >> don't interpret the Quran that way and 1) maintain the distinction >> between Pagans and People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab) and 2) would even >> say it is halal for straight up Pagans to visit as long as they don't >> stay.(this is mentioned in one of the links I provided elsewhere in >> this thread) >> >> So if you want to shake >>> >>>> hands I'm not going to treat you like najas. And if you serve some >>>> good vegetarian food or seafood (which is what I eat for myself) then >>>> I'd be happy to partake. >>>> >>> >>> As would most Muslims living in the US. It is only in predominantly >>> Muslim countries that we are likely to face discrimination. >>> >> >> In terms of the particular religious question under discussion (ritual >> impurity) this is an interpretation limited primarily to Iran, not the >> Muslim world as a whole. >> >> Marriage is a tricky question. Officially, >>> >>>> neither Christianity nor Judaism really approve of intermarriage. >>>> >>> So >>> >>>> Islam is actually more inclusive by allowing marriage with People of >>>> the Book. (And then the question is whether Bahais count under that >>>> category) >>>> >>> >> As you know Christianity is pretty broad. Even Catholics are allowed >>> to intermarry now. It is mostly only evangelicals disapprove, >>> >> >> It isn't that the rules change. If you look up a Catechism of the >> Catholic Church and look at what is says about marriage, marriage is >> still a sacrament and so it can still only happen between baptized >> Christians. And Catholics are a majority of Christians worldwide. In >> any case, the Bible still says "Be not yoked with unbelievers". >> >> Judaism is more >>> tolerant of women intermarrying than men. Islam is just the opposite. >>> Men can intermarry but not women. >>> >> >> I think you are mischaracterizing this. Not to marry non-Jews (of >> either sex) is one of the 613 commandments of the Torah. And even if >> it wasn't a violation of what is seen as a divine commandment, it is >> seen as leading to the dissolution of the Jewish community and is >> often described as finishing up where Hitler left off... Now, >> according to Judaism a child who is born to a Jewish mother is Jewish. >> So the point isn't that Judaism is tolerant of women intermarrying.. >> In either case, intermarriage is not ok. But if a women intermarries, >> the Jewish family and the rabbis who disapprove can find cold comfort >> in the thought "Oh at least the kids will be Jewish" >> >> >>> >> __________________________________________________ >> You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:iskandar....@gmail.com >> Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: >> leave-510698-20805...@list.jccc.edu >> >> Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to >> ly...@list.jccc.edu >> Or subscribe: >> http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >> Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >> Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu >> Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st >> News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st >> Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net >> New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu >> > > __________________________________________________ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:matthewhaa...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto: > leave-510704-9533...@list.jccc.edu > > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510848-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
