The Baha'i Studies Listserv "If the party with a plurality didn't get a majority, then they don't have a mandate and they actually should make concessions to the other parties. How is that undemocratic?"
It is undemocratic because the small party can force major concessions out of all proportions to the size of its constituency. Hence, "wag the dog." This is not just theory. Israel is the best example of how muich damage PR can cause. Even in its German variant. PR has the "wag the dog" problem insofar as a the Greens with about 12% of the vote can force through massive changes like the shutting down of nuclear power stations. (Merkel is now trying to wriggle out of that because most Germans think this is nuts.) Again, there is no perfect voting system. It's just a matter of choosing "your cleanest dirty shirt." Best wishes, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: Gilberto Simpson To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2012 10:14 AM Subject: Re: Religious rejection of politics The Baha'i Studies Listserv4 percent sounds like a fair and reasonable threshold. I don't see how your wag the dog scenario is a big problem. If there is a party that can get an outright majority then they have a mandate and don't need to make major concessions to smaller parties. If the party with a plurality didn't get a majority, then they don't have a mandate and they actually should make concessions to the other parties. How is that undemocratic? I would suggest the wag the dog problem is actually worse in the two-party system. Republican (and Democratic) candidates have to satisfy several different constituencies and each of them gets a huge amount of power. I suspect that under proportional representation, new parties could afford to form and would have more rational amounts of power. The Republicans might split up into a Christian conservative party, an anti-immigrant party a pro-business party, or Ron Paul style libertarians. The Tea Party could be an actual party. The Democrats might became a more unashamedly pro-labor/working class party, The Green Party or an "Occupy" party would be viable. On either side of the spectrum, the fringes could be marginalized and a coalition between more reasonable voices could be formed. On Thu, Nov 22, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Ian Kluge <[email protected]> wrote: The Baha'i Studies ListservThis true only if there is no minimum percentage threshold a party must attain to get representation. Germany, Sweden, Norway, for example, have a 4 or 5% threshold. The biggest argument against proportional representation is the "wag the dog" scenario, in which parties holding a small percentage of the vote can extract major concessions from other parties to form a ruling coalition. In efferct this gives very small parties power far beyond their actual support in the population. This, too, is highly undemocratic - and wastes the votes of the majority. There is no perfect voting method and it's a question of selecting "the cleanest dirty shirt." Best wishes, Ian ----- Original Message ----- From: Gilberto Simpson To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 11:24 PM Subject: Re: Religious rejection of politics The Baha'i Studies ListservMy sense is that Parliamentary systems with proportional representation encourage sincere voting. Under such a system, if the Green Party is closest to your beliefs, and even if they only get 5% of the vote they'll at least get 5% of the seats in Parliament and would be a voice in the government and could form coalitions with other parties. There wouldn't be the whole "wasted vote" issue. On Wed, Nov 21, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Susan Maneck <[email protected]> wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv > LL scores people have said they tend Democrat even though they're closer to > Green Party or Jill Stein > Socialist Party USA or Stewart Alexander That's part of the problem with the party system. You vote for what you think you can get, not for what you think is right. __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-676149-68452.e157d5dc5efabb63696f251595c88...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email protected] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] __________________________________________________ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[email protected] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-676221-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [email protected] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[email protected] Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]
