Hi, In the early 2.50 period I coded miniature tabs, then simply draw as triangles. Such small tabs, woldithout text, a bit nicer styled & drawn, on a consistent & useful location it's still better than the (+) icons imho.
-Ton- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ton Roosendaal Blender Foundation [email protected] www.blender.org Blender Institute Entrepotdok 57A 1018AD Amsterdam The Netherlands On 14 Jun, 2011, at 3:17, Luke Frisken wrote: > Oops, sorry Jim, I meant the compose mail interface rather than the > inbox. Either way, I might have a shot at implementing ideas suggested > here, as I have more time this holidays. > > On 6/13/11, Jim Williams <[email protected]> wrote: >> I've nothing against icons as an option that can be toggled on/off >> (or >> at least minimized) in order to get more real estate. I just object >> to them as the initial, only, or default interface. >> >> (BTW -- My Gmail is all buttons and text.) >> >> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Luke Frisken <[email protected]> >> wrote: >>> I think you are right in one sense. But, I look up here at a >>> toolbar in my >>> gmail and see icons that I have never clicked on and I'm pretty >>> sure I >>> know >>> what they do. I'd call that self explanatory... I guess it takes a >>> knowledge >>> before hand of the function, or a previous encounter with a similar >>> looking >>> icon to be able to guess what it means. So, for a tool shelf you >>> could use >>> something that looks like a tool... Either way it can be hard to >>> guess >>> exactly what it is, even after clicking on it, or finding it in a >>> menu and >>> clicking on it; like you suggest. This is where tooltips are >>> fantastic at >>> filling in the gap between proper wiki documentation, and none at >>> all. It >>> allows people who know vaguely what they are doing to have a >>> better guess >>> at >>> what the function is supposed to do. >>> >>> The sense in which I think you are certainly right is that the >>> current >>> menu hierarchy is the standard way of finding this functionality, >>> and is >>> something we shouldn't change, because many users rely on this to >>> find >>> what >>> they need, and this is also standard behaviour in any software. >>> This is a >>> good thing I think. Buuut, the thing is, that T and the N panel are >>> toggled >>> on and off very frequently in my workflow (and I would guess others, >>> because >>> otherwise this issue wouldn't have been raised), so having as >>> a separate icon in the corner, (like where the plus sign was), >>> would help >>> greatly for people who prefer to use the mouse (less clicks and >>> mouse >>> movement required), and be an even bigger improvement for people >>> who use >>> the >>> tablet. Or, do we want to take the direction of favouring keyboard >>> support? >>> I'm not personally against that, but I know people who are better at >>> remembering positions of icons than random letters on a keyboard. >>> I think >>> I >>> can guess T, but what does N even stand for!? For Non-English, or >>> English >>> as >>> a second language users I reckon this would be even harder, >>> because they >>> would have a harder time guessing what T stood for and associating >>> it with >>> the functionality in blender. >>> >>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Jim Williams <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I have never found any icon scheme self-explanatory. I think >>>> absolutely everything should be available through a menu >>>> hierarchy so >>>> everyone, even beginners, knows that there is at least one way to >>>> find >>>> anything. (I do mean everything, including text fields, >>>> checkboxes, >>>> and dropdowns. It doesn't have to be a shallow hierarchy.) If you >>>> have that then you can provide the hotkeys in the menu and do >>>> everything with hotkeys and pop-ups too. People will look up the >>>> hotkeys in the menu and learn them for anything they use a lot. If >>>> you don't have everything on a menu then there will be a constant >>>> stream of questions asking where and how for simple stuff. With >>>> everything somewhere on a menu people will groan and hunt it down. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:59 AM, Felix Schlitter >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> I couldn't agree more with Michael. Hotkeys for restoring >>>>> headers, or >>>>> locking them would be wonderful! >>>>> >>>>> And on topic: I also never use the toolshelf for anything during >>>> modelling >>>>> other than getting access to the operator panel. F6 is awesome >>>>> but it >>>> would >>>>> be more convenient to have it sitting in a compact shelf >>>>> (especially >>>>> for >>>>> complex operators like the tree generator and stuff). >>>>> >>>>> I like the proposal, however it would mean that the user has to >>>>> learn >>>>> yet >>>>> another hotkey or move the mouse all the way over. Atm, I kinda >>>>> like >>>>> the >>>>> whole N/T hotkey scenario where I press the T, which lays on the >>>>> left >>>> side >>>>> of the keyboard (for english keyboards anyway) to hide the left >>>>> sidebar >>>> and >>>>> vice versa. >>>>> >>>>> Maybe a "Maya toolshelf" could be taken into consideration, >>>>> which sits >>>>> on >>>>> top of the screen and can also be hidden like a header. Then we >>>>> could >>>>> use >>>>> icons instead of text in order to save space. We would just need >>>>> to >>>>> make >>>>> sure that the icons are a bit more self explanatory than those >>>>> used in >>>> Maya. >>>>> Then the operator would sit in the left sidebar by itself, or >>>>> could get >>>>> company some of the items from the right toolbar. >>>>> >>>>> Just an idea >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 9:44 PM, michael williamson < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Sadly there's no key to restore a minimised header! (they're >>>>>> all to >>>>>> easy >>>>>> to close when using a tablet with no way to restore in the cycles >>>>>> branch! (for headers I'd like to see the old 2.49 way and disable >>>>>> minimising them....) >>>>>> >>>>>> ON TOPIC, >>>>>> I'd prefer tool props to be its own panel.... it's too small >>>>>> when at >>>>>> the >>>>>> bottom of the toolshelf I always use F6 in preference.... >>>>>> >>>>>> The toolshelf itself is invaluable in paint, sculpt etc but >>>>>> something >>>>>> I >>>>>> don't use ever when modelling... the operator panel on the >>>>>> other hand >>>>>> is >>>>>> something I'd very much like to have on screen all the time when >>>>>> modelling but hardly ever when painting! >>>>>> >>>>>> I only mention to illustrate that people are different and like >>>>>> different things and a flexible UI should accommodate ;-) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 13/06/11 10:01, M.G. Kishalmi wrote: >>>>>>> I like how Brecht solved this in the cycles branch: >>>>>>> he removed the (+) icons all together. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> there are keys for props [N] and tools [T] >>>>>>> and menu entries (in view) for all 3. >>>>>>> maybe we can simply add a key for tool-props? suggestion: [ALT] >>>>>>> +[N] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> or maybe.. don't allow the tool-props to be hidden at all? >>>>>>> just find a way to have it sit there at the top/bottom of the >>>>>>> tools >>>>>> nicely. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> cheers, >>>>>>> mario >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:19 AM, Jonathan Smith<[email protected] >>>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> You are probably right, using a lot of space doesn't seem to >>>>>>>> be the >>>> best >>>>>>>> answer.. back to drawing board. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 11:31 PM, Jim >>>>>>>> Williams<[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd agree. Find ways to use less real estate, not more. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Aurel W.<[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think that this would be rather unpractical, it takes way >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>> visual space for what it represents. If i want to collapse >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> panels, i want them gone, not taking a lot of space on the >>>>>>>>>> screen >>>> like >>>>>>>>>> those huge buttons. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Blenders gui already got way too unefficient in 2.5, >>>>>>>>>> especially >>>> when >>>>>>>>>> it comes to, space needed for certain gui elements and >>>>>>>>>> panels. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> aurel >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 12 June 2011 13:28, Jonathan Smith<[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I have written up a mockup/proposal on a different way to >>>>>>>>>>> do the >>>>>> closing >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>> opening of the Tool Shelf and Properties Shelf UI, other >>>>>>>>>>> than >>>> using >>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> little plus icons, on my talk page. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://wiki.blender.org/index.php?title=User_talk:JayDez >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am, unfortunately, not a good enough coder to actually >>>>>>>>>>> implement >>>>>> this, >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>>>> I'm just putting it out there as an idea, either for another >>>>>>>>>>> coder >>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> implement, or just to promote discussion about the way this >>>>>>>>>>> works, >>>>>> since >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>> don't think that it is done very well in the current >>>>>>>>>>> version of >>>>>> Blender. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Any comments on or critiques of the mock up would be >>>>>>>>>>> welcome. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Bf-committers mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Bf-committers mailing list >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> No essence. No permanence. No perfection. Only action. >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Bf-committers mailing list >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Bf-committers mailing list >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Bf-committers mailing list >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Bf-committers mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Bf-committers mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> No essence. No permanence. No perfection. Only action. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Bf-committers mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>>> From Luke >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bf-committers mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> No essence. No permanence. No perfection. Only action. >> _______________________________________________ >> Bf-committers mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >> > > -- > Sent from my mobile device > >> From Luke > _______________________________________________ > Bf-committers mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > _______________________________________________ Bf-committers mailing list [email protected] http://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
