Hi Joe, I talk about mails people send to the Blender Foundation, with a list of requirements for them to start using Blender.
I then try to encourage them to then share their ideas in public or to get involved in one way or another. That is (for the reasons I outlined) not possible for many professionals. -Ton- -------------------------------------------------------- Ton Roosendaal - [email protected] - www.blender.org Chairman Blender Foundation, Producer Blender Institute/Studio Entrepotdok 57A - 1018AD Amsterdam - The Netherlands > On 26 Apr 2016, at 21:25, Joe Eagar <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I often get mails from professionals who say "nice job on Blender, but..." >> and then come with a list of favourite Maya or Max features. This might be >> an acceptable consumer attitude towards commercial software, but it's very >> not helpful for a public open source project. Dynamics here work >> differently, it's not based on market shares or consumer satisfaction, it's >> based one time and energy - contributions. > > Oh really? Care to explain? I find such feedback incredibly helpful. > I think you're making the mistake of thinking that if a user wants > something, he should get it now. > > That's just silly. I'm perfectly happy to take a commercial user's > input, and factor it into my medium and long-term thinking. An > example of that is superknife, which I designed as a hybrid of two > different commercial package's knife tools. It took years for BMesh > to reach a state where I could implement it. Geoffrey Bantle thought > the same way, which is why the BMesh data structure he designed is so > flexible and yet simple to work with; it's meant to cover all an > enormous number of use cases (except cad, which requires holes in > polygons; both of us were too intimidated to attempt it at the time). > We loved getting ideas from commercial software and the users of that > software. > > Of course, given the human tendency to turn every public conversation > into a flame war over "which is normatively better, my tribe--erm, I > mean app--or yours?", most of these conversations happened > semi-privately on IRC or through email, and occasionally the main > developers list. > > I love feedback. Feedback is wonderful. Software development is an > incredibly complicated constrained optimization process. Feedback > helps you prioritize goals. It doesn't have to be implemented > immediately; in fact it can take years, and I think that's okay. I'd > much rather have knowledge I cannot act on now, then live in ignorance > until I have the means to implement said knowledge. When I finally do > implement it, I'll have had years to think about it. > > Cheers, > Joe > > On Tue, Apr 26, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Thomas Dinges <[email protected]> wrote: >> It's Ton, not Tom. ;) >> >> Am 26.04.2016 um 15:23 schrieb David Ballesteros: >>> Hi Sybren, >>> >>> It's simply crossed to me as a too much white & black answer, nothing else. >>> I just read Tom new answer and I understand his original answer. >>> So all is good. >>> >>>> You don't appear like an avid hater, so why do you feel he is addressing >>> you? >>>> Cheers, >>>> -- >>>> Sybren A. St?vel >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Hi Tom, >>> >>> Thanks for the welcome and the answer. >>> Now I understand much better your points. >>> >>> I'm very glad to read you're open to suggestions form "commercial" software >>> users. >>> >>> A simple argument can be used to those users that want feature X in Blender >>> is asking them how many features suggested by them got implemented on their >>> commercial X software. ;) I know several of mine were completly ignored in >>> LW and Modo :D >>> >>>> My expectation was that we could use the dynamics of the 2.8 project to >>> include that target. >>>> But I'm still not convinced we are ready for it now. The project is too >>> complicated, with too >>>> many inactive stakeholders and not enough active contributors. But we >>> make progress here... >>> >>> I read the document you attached yesterday, and I'm very glad to see where >>> is going, and I guess you mean it was for the 2.8 branch and still under >>> disscusion if it oges or not?. >>> >>> I liked the consolidation explained area by area, that will really >>> streamline Blender and make it even better. >>> >>> I still have a lot to read on Blender internals to even know where to start >>> to touch without breaking anything :) I'll try to do my best. >>> >>> To the OP (Daniel): >>> I read that reddit thread, and I think better ignore it. Too much energy >>> spent in a discussion that doesn't take anywhere. >>> >>> Cheers >>> David. >>> >>> Message: 6 >>>> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 11:17:51 +0200 >>>> From: Ton Roosendaal <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Bf-committers] Current state of Blender's user >>>> experience (Ton Roosendaal) >>>> To: bf-blender developers <[email protected]> >>>> Message-ID: <[email protected]> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>> >>>> Hi David, >>>> >>>> Thanks for sharing, I just addressed the Blender haters out there, not >>>> users of other 3d tools. >>>> >>>> It is great that there are so many people involved with our projects who >>>> used (or still use) commercial 3d software as well. We can learn from them, >>>> especially because they were curious enough to invest time to figure out >>>> how to use Blender, or what makes Blender good (enough to use) as well. >>>> >>>> So please feel welcome to hangout, help developers with their work or >>>> contribute code. >>>> >>>> I often get mails from professionals who say "nice job on Blender, but..." >>>> and then come with a list of favourite Maya or Max features. This might be >>>> an acceptable consumer attitude towards commercial software, but it's very >>>> not helpful for a public open source project. Dynamics here work >>>> differently, it's not based on market shares or consumer satisfaction, it's >>>> based one time and energy - contributions. >>>> >>>> It's also a misconception to think we didn't code awesome feature X or Y >>>> because we didn't know it existed, or didn't know it was so important. >>>> There's just not enough developers to contribute. >>>> >>>> So: how do we get studios or professionals organise Blender projects to >>>> handle their favourite topics? I always tell them they're welcome, with >>>> limited success. I learned that getting involved with FLOSS is not in their >>>> DNA really. First of all it takes (a lot of) time, which is expensive for >>>> pros. Second we cannot give a hard guarantee in advance that things will >>>> work as planned or get accepted in releases. And third: corporate practices >>>> is still based on secrecy and non-disclosure, participating in a public >>>> project is regarded as a loss of competitive advantage. That is changing >>>> (ILM, Pixar, etc), but hardly in small/medium sized companies. >>>> >>>> Because it could be so easy. If just 20 Maya/Max subscribers would decide >>>> to invest in Blender what they'd give to Autodesk, they could hire a >>>> developer to work for them full time - to fix mouse/keyboard input mapping >>>> and configurability for example, snapping tools, and other very useful >>>> projects. >>>> >>>> My expectation was that we could use the dynamics of the 2.8 project to >>>> include that target. But I'm still not convinced we are ready for it now. >>>> The project is too complicated, with too many inactive stakeholders and not >>>> enough active contributors. But we make progress here... >>>> >>>> -Ton- >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Bf-committers mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Bf-committers mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers > _______________________________________________ > Bf-committers mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers _______________________________________________ Bf-committers mailing list [email protected] https://lists.blender.org/mailman/listinfo/bf-committers
