You seemed to have missed the point of my last post and maybe others.  I do applaud your "participatory democracy."  Indeed I do.  The post I referred to suggested in fact that there was an engineer with a people friendly approach.  The problem with me and other libertarians (small "L") is the process.  When it is finally submitted to your "participatory democracy" the choices have been listed and certainly it would seem from "Bikies"--the whole city would have descended on a neighborhood in question to exert THEIR VIEWS.  Tell me-----is city planning as you describe it--actually submitted to a neighborhood referendum?  Or are such local meetings only advisory?  That is advisory to the next level of "certified experts" who report to the next level of experts?  You see my point?  Of course I am only talking about an ideal--about a theory of actual local control.  The planning czars of Madison will do as government does--originate their plans of the moment--hold meetings, even with locals--and expand their budgets and bureaucracies--year after year--unchecked by any form of competition.------ew

Schimpff, Jeff A - DNR wrote:
Eric, it sounds like you'd love to move here. We generally do have participatory democracy here, for neighborhood-level projects and (though to a less effective degree), for major city-wide projects.
 
Refer to the Bikies archive regarding my summary 3 or 4 weeks ago of the Kendall Bike Boulevard pre-design meeting with street residents and other neighbors, for one example of scores of such projects that lend evidence to the concept that "We the People" are the government. Therefore (in most cases at least) the "government" you seem to fear is not the enemy, at least in this little burg. The government here is us, with our hired servants, doing our bidding.
 
Is Ripon ruled by an Oligarchy????
 

Jeff Schimpff
Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources
Madison, WI
608-267-7853
"Bus, Bike, Carpool to Work for Clean Air for Kids"

"Pedestrians and cyclists are the indicator species of a healthier community"

 

From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Eric Westhagen
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 11:23 PM
To: Eric Sundquist; BikiesSubmissions
Subject: Re: [Bikies] road design impacts considered

--I presume it has been a long time since "property owners" were consulted except in a new subdivision.  Possibly a lifetime.  But whatever you don't like now and wish to correct, remember the "experts" with proper engineering degrees, certifications--and the big bucks-------figured out whatever you don't like now.  So, which new fad will be better?  Your description seems to be going back before--------all that expert GOVERNMENT city planning  --slower streets, on street parking--narrowness, round abouts to slow the speed--maybe stop signs on every corner?  And maybe the property owners on city streets would welcome a step back to those slower times.  Whatever a government committee does, they will declare--"it is new and different"----maybe write a book--hope for a promotion or at least to head a LARGER department.  Remember, those are the motives of government workers.  The property owners have to live on the streets.  They have to raise their children there.

--Eric

Eric Sundquist wrote:
Forgot to mention a biggie: On-street parking.

From: Eric Sundquist <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 9:55:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Bikies] road design impacts considered

>What should we do to address this issue? From an engineer's
>perspective, what's the issue here?

I'm not an engineer but have read a lot of this literature. I guy I know from Georgia Tech, Eric Dumbaugh (now at Texas A&M) has done a lot of good work on this.

Basically, as the article says, we've tried to make roads straighter and wider in the name of safety, even banning benches and landscaping in the "recovery zone" next to urban arterials (which is where the sidewalk is, which says a lot about whose safety is being considered).

But that strategy invites speeding. Speed limits have little effect -- as we will see in Madison if we do as the alder wants and lower the speed limit on Stoughton Road without changing the design.

The literature is still developing, so it's hard to precisely predict how traffic will behave in all situations. But in general, these types of measures are thought to help reduce speeds:

* Narrow lanes. The Green Book allows for 10-foot lanes, but generally we build arterial and even collector lanes much wider. I did a speed study on one with 15-foot lanes -- very few drivers heeded the 30 mph limit and some were going nearly double that.
* Reduce building setbacks to lessen the wide-open feel.
* Do "road diets," e.g. by replacing four-lane streets with TWLTLs. (TWLTLs let the most conservative driver set the pace.)
* Install landscaping and other elements -- even curves -- that don't allow drivers to see down the road forever. (I'm not suggesting blind intersections, just enough variation in the passing landscape to require attention; Dumbaugh finds a major safety benefit.)
* Mark pavement or use special pavers to indicate pedestrian crossings.
* Allow small trees, benches, etc. -- nothing that would kill a motorist should he/she veer into it -- in the "recovery zone."
* Time stoplights for the speed limit and post signs indicating this. (A variation -- can't remember where this is: a light that turns red when it senses speeding. Add a red-light camera and you have a pretty fool-proof speed reduction strategy. Though it probably violates the MUTCD warrant on when to install traffic lights.)
* Replace highway-style signage with more traditional urban signs, and rename urban streets that have the word "highway" in them to "street," "boulevard," etc.

Eric
From: Jay Ferm <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tue, March 30, 2010 12:52:18 PM
Subject: [Bikies] road design impacts considered

www.infrastructurist.com has an interesting article on how road design
impacts road speed:
http://www.infrastructurist.com/2010/03/23/can-roads-control-your-driving-the-truth-about-safety-enhancing-road-design/

My classic example of this in Madison is the stretch of Atwood Ave
adjacent to Olbrich Gardens. I've gotten two speeding tickets here.
The speed limit is marked as 25mph but traffic routinely travels at
40+ mph. I maintain this is due to the road being designed for higher
speed than it's marked. This stretch is wide open, few trees impinge
on the roadway, buildings are set far back. It LITERALLY is DIFFICULT
to respect the speed limit here. Both times I was ticketed I was
traveling at the prevailing speed of traffic. (I am not offering an
excuse for my driving. Just an observation. I broke the law and I
willingly paid the fine.)

IF the posted speed limit is what is considered safe; AND if the
preponderance of traffic on a road travel at a speed drivers consider
safe and comfortable; AND if the preponderant speed is higher than the
posted speed; THEN we are designing roads to operate at unsafe speeds.

What other examples do you have from the Madison area of roads
designed to operate at unsafe speeds?

What should we do to address this issue? From an engineer's
perspective, what's the issue here?

Best,
Jay Ferm
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