Hi ZmnSCPxj,

>on completion of the protocol, if Bob lets the refund tx#1 become valid
(i.e. does not spend the BTC txo) then Alice can broadcast it, putting both
their funds into chaos

You forget, refund tx #1 has a script (which btw won't be visible with
taproot): "Alice & Bob OR Alice in +1 day" (relative) so if Alice
broadcasts it after protocol completion, she is just giving Bob the key to
her LTC (note: if she's wise she'd move the LTC beforehand), but Bob
doesn't lose the BTC because he has both keys and can just react before the
relative timelock expires. No chaos.

>This is why we eventually decided in Lightning to use two CPFP outpoints
rather than one

I appreciate the explanation. I see the problem now, and yes, that does
seem like a headache.


On Wed, May 13, 2020 at 1:39 PM ZmnSCPxj <zmnsc...@protonmail.com> wrote:

> Good morning Ruben,
> > Hi ZmnSCPxj,
> >
> > >potentially both Alice and Bob know all the secrets on the LTC side and
> end up competing over it
> >
> > That's exactly right.
> >
> > >Bob can thus give a copy of the revoke tx with signature directly to
> its favorite miner, forcing Alice to take 3 transactions
> >
> > Note that the timelock on the revoke tx is longer than the timelock on
> refund tx #1. The idea is that Alice aborts the protocol by publishing
> refund tx #1 if the protocol hasn't reached step 4 in the svg by the time
> it becomes valid. This should entirely mitigate the issue you're describing.
> But if refund tx #1 at all exists, then you drop to the same issue you
> objected to with my proposal, which is that, on completion of the protocol,
> if Bob lets the refund tx#1 become valid (i.e. does not spend the BTC txo)
> then Alice can broadcast it, putting both their funds into chaos.
> So you might as well just use my counterproposal instead, which is
> simpler, gets bring-your-own-fees for free, etc.
> I suppose there is some *slight* improvement in that with your proposal,
> Alice *can* use revoke tx -> refund tx #2, but still, if Alice is insane
> then it could very well mess with the protocol by instead using refund tx
> #1.
> Thus, if Bob wants to survive in an environment where Alices are possibly
> insane (e.g. the real world), it should do everything in its power to
> ensure that the BTC txo is spent before the timeout of refund tx #1, if
> refund tx #1 exists at all.
> And if Bob is already going to do that, then Alice and Bob might as well
> just use my counterproposal etc etc.
> > >adding two CPFP outputs (one for each participant)
> >
> > There seems to be a situation where RBF can be disabled by the other
> party, but I'm not sure I see it... Why would a single output spendable by
> either key be insufficient?
> If one party quickly broadcasts a long chain of low-feerate transactions
> on top of the single output, then the output is "pinned".
> Low feerate means it is undesirable for miners to mine it, because it pays
> low for the amount of blockspace it has.
> But because there is a long chain of transactions, the absolute fee of
> that chain can be sizable, and we have a rule in RBF which, paraphrased,
> goes something like "the replacing transaction should also have a higher
> absolute fee than *all* the transactions it replaces", meaning the fee jump
> that the other side has to offer *has to be* pretty big.
> If the other outputs of the tx are then multisig, then the pinning
> participant can simply refuse to sign for those, and if the existing txes
> spending the other outputs are relative-time-locked, they cannot be used to
> CPFP the revoke tx onchain.
> This is why we eventually decided in Lightning to use two CPFP outpoints
> rather than one, and are also realizing just how much of a headache the RBF
> rules are, sigh.
> Still, in your proposed protocol the dependent transactions are all
> relative-timelocked, so timely confirmation of the revoke tx is not
> necessary, unlike in the case of Lightning where all HTLCs have to use an
> absolute timelock because we have to coordinate multiple HTLCs in
> forwarding and violation of the timelocks can lead to headaches and fund
> loss and so on.
> So maybe a single hook output, or even none at all, is workable.
> >
> >
> > Allowing others to add inputs/outputs would introduce malleability.
> Refund tx #2 and the timeout tx would become invalid.
> Ah, right, you still need `SIGHASH_ANYPREVOUT`/`SIGHASH_NOINPUT` for that.
> > >Bob cannot safely perform step 2 before getting both signatures for the
> revoke tx
> >
> > That's right, as you guessed, he does receive a copy of the signed
> revoke tx at protocol start.
> >
> > >>alternatively Bob can just spend before the timelock expires.
> > >This seems to be the safest alternative
> >
> > I agree not giving Alice time to publish the revoke tx is safest, but
> one does not preclude the other. The revoke tx is on an absolute timelock,
> so spending it before that time means you don't have anything to
> worry about, and spending it later means you'll have to be online and keep
> an eye out. If staying online is not a problem, then fee wise that seems
> preferable. As long as less than half of all valid (i.e. the timelock was
> reached) revoke transactions get broadcast, you'll be saving on fees.
> In a world where Alice may be insane and mess with the protocol just to
> grief Bob even if Alice loses its money (e.g. the real world), Bob should
> not depend on Alice behaving correctly or politely, so it should still have
> backup watchers set up in case it accidentally goes to sleep and so on.
> Regards,
> ZmnSCPxj
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