Hi Victor,

I will begin by saying I have very limited experience with ceramic flooring. My 
understanding though from studying the subject a little and why I don't have 
any here is:

Laying tile on a wooden substrate presents two problems, both related to 
movement of the wood. The first is expansion and contraction of the wood with 
changes in humidity and to a lesser extent the movement of the tile and it's 
bed due mostly to temperature.

The other is movement due to flex, as you say, movement caused as you move 
across the floor causing shifting.

If the floor tends to shudder as you stomp about then you need reinforcement 
under it, sistering additional joists or additional posts holding it up from 
underneath. This isn't probably practical.

Unless the floor feels a little spongy and it seems to be spaced like between 
the joists then replacing the decking won't likely make a lot of difference.
On the other hand a couple or four sheets of good dense plywood will only add a 
couple of hundred dollars of cost and it is an option to be left open. It is 
possible that some part of the floor has got wet at some time and has 
deteriorated under the tiles which should become obvious when the mortar
bed is removed.

If there is already a transition up to the tiles and building it up a little 
higher with thicker plywood subfloor you might also consider that. Usually 
5/8ths is used, you could go to quarter inch or even thicker at a little more 
cost but a lot more rigidity. If the joists though are deflecting as you walk 
about this won't help. While they have the wood up though you might be able to 
sister in more wood or gain some additional rigidity by cross bracing between 
the joists at fairly close intervals. The builders won't like doing it much and 
will probably have to use 'X' braces to allow for wiring or pipes, you could 
also use short lengths, 14 and a quarter inches or so long lengths of the joist 
material 2 by 10 or what ever where there are no obstructions like pipes 
though. Additional bracing will significantly reduce deflection of the joists 
and help to share what does exist across adjacent joists. If you line the 
bracing up near end-to-end any deflection can be nearly eliminated.

Finally, I have seen several times on those television programmes where they 
lay down a rubber like membrane over the wood subfloor before the bed of mortar 
into which the tiles are set. This is to eliminate the sheering force between 
the moving wood surface and the rigid and inflexible mortar and tiles. The 
membrane sheers and not the bond between the wood and the mortar. this 
apparently substantially reduces the failure rate of the mortar bed which will 
substantially improve the tile bond and reduce the opportunity for cracking and 
failure. Now I have never known anyone around here to have used it, most though 
have only used ceramic tiles in small areas like entrance ways and such and 
none I know have had it long. It may be common in the city where there is a lot 
more ceramic tile used but it is something you might like to ask about.

That is about everything I know about the subject and remember I don't have any 
direct experience, it is what I would do in your position.

I hope this helps if even just a little.


Dale Leavens, Cochrane Ontario Canada
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype DaleLeavens
Come and meet Aurora, Nakita and Nanook at our polar bear habitat.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Victor Gouveia 
  To: Blind Handyman Listserv 
  Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 6:09 AM
  Subject: [BlindHandyMan] To Scratch or Not To Scratch


  Hi Folks,

  Had a contractor here yesterday, two in fact, and each gives me their own 
interpretation of something I need done to my kitchen floor, so I'm wondering 
what you all think.

  I'm going to be replacing the ceramic tiles on my kitchen floor upstairs. I'm 
going to be laying thicker tiles down than I already have up there, as my 
current floor tiles are all cracked and coming up.

  Suffice it to say, this is a long time in coming.

  In any case, like I said above, I get a different story, as to how to go 
about installing the floor from each of the contractors. One says that I should 
rip everything up, and just lay down three quarter or five eighths inch plywood 
without any scratch coat, and I should be fine.

  The other says that I really don't need to rip up the sub-floor, as it feels 
sturdy to him, and that all you need to do is apply a good scratch coat to it, 
and install the new tiles.

  As some of you may or may not know, I'm a pretty hefty guy, weighing in at 
around 375, so this floor will have to put up with a heavy weight. Add to that 
the fact that this is the main kitchen for the house, so we're talking a great 
deal of traffic and with a five year-old running around, we're bound to get 
some spills and food stuff on the floor. Hell, I'm not that clean an eater 
either.

  In any case, which contractor is right.

  Can you make an argument for going with the scratch coat alone, or ripping up 
the sub-floor altogether and installing the plywood without the scratch coat?

  I should also note that the scratch coat would also entail laying down the 
wire mesh, so I guess that would make the scratch coat even stronger, but I'm 
still hesitant to do this, as I have had two contractors tell me that I should 
rip up the sub-floor in the kitchen and start from the bottom up.

  Any ideas?

  Victor Gouveia

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