Dale, thanks for the info and all the input. There is a lot here to consider and digest, but I think I'll be looking at the attic first and see what is there for insulation. I do know there are some areas such as around the sump pump outlets and sealing these will help. So, thanks and I'll go over this message and see what all I can extract. On May 12, 2009, at 10:01 PM, Dale Leavens wrote:
> > > There are a few things to consider here. > > Blowing insulation into the walls can certainly help if there isn't > any or if you know of pockets or voids. Ceiling insulation is very > helpful. It wants to be well fitted. how much difference it makes > will depend a lot on where you live and how cold or hot it gets. > Remember that a lot of heat comes in through the ceiling as well > which influences air conditioning costs. These days I would think > even in moderate climates cross laying two layers of 6 inch for > overall 12 inches of fiberglass would not be extreme. The exterior > foam will insulate but it also helps create an air barrier. That > turns out to be one of the most costly problems, air leakage. In > cold weather or during windy conditions go around feeling for > drafts. A sighted person can stick a strip of something like toilet > paper onto the end of a wire, something like a straightened out coat > hanger or maybe a light ribbon. turn off the furnace fan and move > around poking this ribbon around closed doors, windows, electrical > outlets, other penetrations like bathroom fans, where the water or > electrical panel is located looking for air movement. When you find > it figure out how to weather strip or calk. Old windows often > weren't well fitted and there can be quite wide gaps between the > outside frame and the edge of the hole in the wall. Carefully > removing the trim around a window and insulating that space, > sometimes half an inch wide all around the window can really help. > Spray in foam fills the void well and seals it up. Be careful not to > get the stuff that really expands, it can deform the window frame > and seize it up. Figure this though, a window 3 by 4 feet is 168 > inches around. A half inch void all around represents 84 square > inches without insulation. That is like a square over 9 inches by 9 > inches. If you have say 10 such windows that is a big open > insulation space. > > Now consider an exterior door. Say 78 inches by 34 wide, that is 224 > inches around. Let us allow a 16th inch gap all around. That is 14 > square inches. If you don't have a good seal around that door when > it closes it is like having a hole in the wall about three and three > quarters inches by three and three quarters inches. One probably > doesn't have quite that large a gap but consider all the doors and > windows and leaks around penetrations like the telephone and cable > television wires or an open chimney flu and it can add up to a > bloody great hole just robbing heated or cooled air to the outside > which has to be made up if you are going to be comfortable. There > are other contrived exhausts like bathroom fans and the dryer vent > pulling air from the house which is being made up with outdoor air. > It all costs heating or cooling money. > > As for running circulation fans I really only ever turn mine off > when I change the air filter. It is a bit noisy but I get used to > that, I never get used to the damn thing coming on and off and of > course the circulating air tends not to layer. We have a rather big > house though and only the two of us knocking about in it so empty > rooms wouldn't otherwise get much ventilation. Probably electricity > is too cheap as well. I also rarely remember to turn off the dust > filter in my shop and I seem to have a variety of stereo equipment > on most of the time. > > There may be another dimension to your thoughts on mold spores. As > water condenses out of the air passing through the humidifier it may > be that it is capturing spores and washing them down into the > reservoir where they collect for tipping down the drain. > > Every occasionally I used to dribble an ounce or two of Javex or > other bleach into the reservoir just to keep algae from growing. > > As for the capacity, it only comes down to how often you empty it. > My old dehumidifier had a knock-out and a cap over a sump at the > bottom of the reservoir which could be removed and either set over a > drain or have a hose threaded onto so that the reservoir drained > directly into the sewer. > > The humidistat might not be all that far off when you consider it is > sensing air as it passes through the machine. At that point it may > well be different from a sensor located and reading ambient humidity > at some point remote from the dehumidifier. Consider what would > happen if your thermostat was above a heat outlet or even some other > heat source. It would not register the same as a thermometer on the > front door. > > As the environment stabilizes I am pretty sure you will find that > the dehumidifier will run much less. Often one is better leaving it > operate continuously rather than switching it on and off just > because it will take a long time to restore stability after extended > disuse. > > So, to recap, defeat air leakage and control the exchange of fresh > and ambient air. Insulate to retain the heat you pay for Those are > really quite cheap efficiencies. > > Based on my experience I also recommend a programmable thermostat. > Now Janet is in the house so we don't set it back during the day but > I have the furnace come on to 21C or about 70F an hour before we get > up in the morning. It isn't quite settled in an hour but close > enough. In the evening, about 7 p.m. I have it up a degree, nearly 2 > degrees F. then at 10:30 it automatically sets back to 16C or about > 61F. According to my talking thermostats, the furnace rarely comes > on before morning even when it gets as cold as 40 below. It is > difficult to know just how much this saves as gas prices have gone > up substantially since I installed the programmable thermostat and > certainly a lot of my success is the high insulation and air > tightness of this building. We also always sleep with our bedroom > window open, admittedly not a lot in really cold weather but with > the bedroom door closed. > > I was skeptical at first, wondering how much energy it takes to > raise the ambient temperature of the building structure and the > contents but it seems to work and I suppose that some of that energy > cost is offset by the inertia of the building and contents cooling > off. > > We don't air condition although there are always a couple or three > weeks in the year it would be nice. We can usually turn the furnace > off about the first week in May and back on about the first week in > September but this year we have had it off a couple of days only, it > was on last night but looks like maybe we won't need it tonight. if > we get good enough sun during the day our daily solar gains might > mean that last night is the last this season but they are calling > for cool cloudy days over this coming week-end. This year may be a > little longer heating season than most, so much for global warming! > > That about taps my knowledge on the subject. Hope it gives you some > ideas. > > Dale leavens. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Scott Howell > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 7:28 AM > Subject: Re: [BlindHandyMan] more on humidity > > Dale, > > You make some excellent points and I think your summary of an > expensive bathroom fan is probably on target. There is no heat > exchanger/recovery system in this. I think I slightly offended the > woman when I said it was a high-priced fan ducted to the outdoors. > grin > You make some interesting statements I'd like to elaborate on a bit > or maybe more ask questions. See this is one of those issues I've been > dealing with and until I moved my office to the lower basement, I > really didn't think much about the humidity etc. I knew it was there > because the place smelled musty which is apparently dead mold spores > in the carpet, yuck. In any event I have some expensive instruments > and protecting them and the other stuff down here is very important > and I can't move my operations back upstairs for a lot of reasons. So, > I guess the humidifier is the best choice although I wonder if 45 > pints would be sufficient or if I should go up to a 65 pint unit. THe > basement is odd in that this is a split-level house so there is no > door at the top of the stairs. I think this unit is doing a reasonable > job. I have found that setting it's humidistat to 65% will keep the > humidity at around 50%, so that indicates to me the unit is not very > accurate and the hygrometer is probably not perfect itself and thus > the sum total is no more musty smell and that's a good thing. THe one > thing I did do right is I had the gent who installed my new heat pump, > put in a return and outlet in another area of the basement. THe > previous owners had a vent in a closet, which made no sense so I had > that sealed and a defuser put into the main family room area. Now you > say you run your furnace fan all year. I leave it running when the AC > is on, off when the windows are open, and off during the Winter. The > reason off in the WInter is because heat pumps suck so bad, the air at > 65 degrees even on a real low speed makes the house feel cold. > However, perhaps I should be running it regardless of whether or not > the heat or AC is on and just turn it off when the windows are open. > There are days where we have neither AC or heat on, but windows > closed. Perhaps that would be the time to still run the fan. I think > my concern was the possible $20 to $30 additional cost per month to > run the dehumidifier and that is a lot considering the cost of > electricity here. I do need to get the specs and try to calculate the > cost of running this unit. I know it will certainly ad to the electric > bill, but folks I have talked to around here who have used > dehumidifiers made in the last couple of years say the increase was > not that bad. And I guess in the end the additional expense is going > to be worth it. I don't know how much of this piffle the sales lady > talked about the humidifier pulling mold spores in and tossing them > back out really matters. I mean there is likely mold in here in any > event and all but short of sealing my house and having a > decontamination chamber at each door, I'll likely have some mold. Now > sorry, I did get a little off track in my extensive prattle and I > suspect Dale that yes, they anticipate a leaky home, which in reality > would bring humidity into the home. I don't know if the system is a > completely bad idea, but for $1,500 on sale to $2,200 regular price, > it can't be worth it. If just installing a fan that vented outdoors > would solve my problem, that would be very easy, but I sure don't want > to extract heat or cool air from the home and dump it outside, that > would just make no sense at all. > Thanks for the great feedback and any ideas, I'm open to suggestions. > I keep my house at 65 degrees F in the WInter because it would cost me > to much to heat the damned thing to 70, which would please my wife to > no end. I often think that perhaps adding more insulation to the attic > would be a wise move and any recommendations on the best insulation > appreciated. And I have often toyed with the idea of blowing more > insulation in the walls, but that probably would be an expense and I'm > not sure if that would make sense. I had new siding put on and they > did put 3/4 thick foam (that stiff stuff) on before the siding and I > think that did help. I'm willing to consider any ideas to make the > home more efficient since I know that was not the builders idea. Of > course getting rid of the heat pump would be the best move, but then > I'm down to oil or propane, since natural gas is not available. > > tnx, > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
