I agree with both of these things. I'm in support of removing the "hidden" state all together, for all scrollers.
On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 3:34:35 PM UTC-7 sko...@chromium.org wrote: > My own view is that it is user-hostile to fully hide scrollbars, because > then you have no visual indication that a region of the page is > scrollable. Though it does seem that this ship has sailed on other OS'es. > > Orthogonal to that concern, I think the web platform should try to avoid > giving different behavior to root and non-root scrollers. So if we decide > hidden scrollbars are a good idea, then we should hide them for the root > scroller too (when the cursor leaves the content area). > > But I'd ideally like to have only the minimal and full modes, and not the > hidden mode, for all scrollers. > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 6:16 PM 'Ben Mathwig' via blink-dev < > blin...@chromium.org> wrote: > >> I'm glad you brought this up, it's something we'd like to get your take >> on. Windows designed it that way in their official spec, but I personally >> feel like it creates an accessibility issue. I believe Apple hides the >> panning indicator on macOS, so I suspect their design inspiration came from >> there. >> >> On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 2:31:07 PM UTC-7 sko...@chromium.org wrote: >> >>> Thanks for sharing these docs. >>> >>> I am curious about the rationale for "Hidden Mode" as described in the >>> visual >>> spec >>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EpJnWAcPCxBQo6zPGR1Tg1NACiIJ-6dk7cYyK1DhBWw/edit>. >>> >>> Why is this mode desired only for non-root scrollers? >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 4:33 PM Rahul Arakeri <ara...@microsoft.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Just checking in to see if anyone got a chance to review the doc. >>>> >>>> Please let us know if you have any questions/concerns (or if it looks >>>> good as-is). š >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Rahul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rahul Arakeri >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 10, 2022 5:48 PM >>>> *To:* Chris Harrelson <chri...@chromium.org> >>>> *Cc:* Steve Kobes <sko...@chromium.org>; Ian Kilpatrick < >>>> ikilp...@chromium.org>; Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>; blink-dev < >>>> blin...@chromium.org>; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; wangxianzhu >>>> <wangx...@chromium.org>; Philip Rogers <p...@chromium.org>; input-dev < >>>> inpu...@chromium.org>; Yaroslav Shalivskyy <yshal...@microsoft.com>; >>>> Olga Gerchikov <gerc...@microsoft.com>; Sahir Vellani < >>>> sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben Mathwig <benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>> *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>> Scrollbars. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hereās the design doc. Please have a look at it and let us know what >>>> you think. š >>>> >>>> FluentScrollbarsDesignDoc - Google Docs >>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YDigd2XlAw0Lj5cQ5S-mGzntLZghLRUJ_wKLsCBxsuw/edit> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Rahul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rahul Arakeri >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 8, 2022 9:24 AM >>>> *To:* 'Chris Harrelson' <chri...@chromium.org> >>>> *Cc:* Steve Kobes <sko...@chromium.org>; Ian Kilpatrick < >>>> ikilp...@chromium.org>; Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>; blink-dev < >>>> blin...@chromium.org>; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; wangxianzhu >>>> <wangx...@chromium.org>; Philip Rogers <p...@chromium.org>; input-dev < >>>> inpu...@chromium.org>; Yaroslav Shalivskyy <yshal...@microsoft.com>; >>>> Olga Gerchikov <gerc...@microsoft.com>; Sahir Vellani < >>>> sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben Mathwig <benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>> *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>> Scrollbars. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sounds good Chris, weāll send out a class design doc shortly to get >>>> everyone on the same page. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Re Manuel: Thanks for your input, weāll come up with a plan to keep >>>> non-overlay scrollbars tests running as well.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Chris Harrelson <chri...@chromium.org> >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 3, 2022 10:28 PM >>>> *To:* Rahul Arakeri <ara...@microsoft.com> >>>> *Cc:* Steve Kobes <sko...@chromium.org>; Ian Kilpatrick < >>>> ikilp...@chromium.org>; Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>; blink-dev < >>>> blin...@chromium.org>; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; wangxianzhu >>>> <wangx...@chromium.org>; Philip Rogers <p...@chromium.org>; input-dev < >>>> inpu...@chromium.org>; Yaroslav Shalivskyy <yshal...@microsoft.com>; >>>> Olga Gerchikov <gerc...@microsoft.com>; Sahir Vellani < >>>> sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben Mathwig <benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>> Scrollbars. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 3, 2022, 10:00 PM 'Rahul Arakeri' via blink-dev < >>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Just checking in on this.. Please let us know if you need anything from >>>> us to move this discussion along. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Rahul, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Since this is an intent to implement you don't need any official >>>> approval from an API owner. Feel free to start landing code. Let me know >>>> if >>>> you run into any issues, happy to help unblock progress. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Rahul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Rahul Arakeri >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 1, 2022 11:43 AM >>>> *To:* 'Steve Kobes' <sko...@chromium.org> >>>> *Cc:* Chris Harrelson <chri...@chromium.org>; Ian Kilpatrick < >>>> ikilp...@chromium.org>; Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>; >>>> blin...@chromium.org; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; wangxianzhu < >>>> wangx...@chromium.org>; p...@chromium.org; inpu...@chromium.org; >>>> Yaroslav Shalivskyy <yshal...@microsoft.com>; Olga Gerchikov < >>>> gerc...@microsoft.com>; Sahir Vellani <sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben >>>> Mathwig <benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>> *Subject:* RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>> Scrollbars. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Re Steve: For Linux, we don't have a strong preference on the default >>>> scrollbar mode (and we donāt yet know the scope of work needed since we >>>> never tested this feature on Linux). >>>> >>>> For Windows however, we recommend having minimal mode as the default as >>>> outlined in the visual spec >>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1EpJnWAcPCxBQo6zPGR1Tg1NACiIJ-6dk7cYyK1DhBWw%2Fedit&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=wjV1rSuW5VI7QIGa5Zn%2BniKvbllT%2B81iqq1zjF62Zyo%3D&reserved=0> >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Re all: Please let us know if we all have consensus on the visual >>>> styling >>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1EpJnWAcPCxBQo6zPGR1Tg1NACiIJ-6dk7cYyK1DhBWw%2Fedit&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=wjV1rSuW5VI7QIGa5Zn%2BniKvbllT%2B81iqq1zjF62Zyo%3D&reserved=0> >>>> >>>> of the scrollbars. If you want to see the feature in action, please feel >>>> free to check out Microsoft Edge Canary >>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoftedgeinsider.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload%2Fcanary&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=X%2BvICikSWgyvetSfBzwR6EAAqdSmxU6EXosFJSqdzCM%3D&reserved=0>. >>>> >>>> (Experimental flag *edge://flags/#edge-overlay-scrollbars-win-style*). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Steve Kobes <sko...@chromium.org> >>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 31, 2022 11:38 AM >>>> *To:* Rahul Arakeri <ara...@microsoft.com> >>>> *Cc:* Chris Harrelson <chri...@chromium.org>; Ian Kilpatrick < >>>> ikilp...@chromium.org>; Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org>; >>>> blin...@chromium.org; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; wangxianzhu < >>>> wangx...@chromium.org>; p...@chromium.org; inpu...@chromium.org; >>>> Yaroslav Shalivskyy <yshal...@microsoft.com>; Olga Gerchikov < >>>> gerc...@microsoft.com>; Sahir Vellani <sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben >>>> Mathwig <benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>> Scrollbars. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Keeping non-overlay by default on Linux would be one way to mitigate >>>> the risk that Ian mentions, namely that bugs specific to non-overlay mode >>>> may creep in and not be noticed quickly. (This concern applies to some >>>> degree both to bugs in websites, and bugs in Chrome.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 31, 2022 at 2:23 PM 'Rahul Arakeri' via input-dev < >>>> inpu...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Thanks Ian :) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Re Chris: >>>> >>>> There will be some OS wiring missing (like switching between dark/light >>>> modes, "Always show scrollbarsā, etc) but most of the code should just >>>> work. Note that we've never really tested this feature on Linux so we do >>>> not have an exhaustive list of stuff that will not work on Linux. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Chris Harrelson <chri...@chromium.org> >>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 28, 2022 3:45 PM >>>> *To:* Ian Kilpatrick <ikilp...@chromium.org> >>>> *Cc:* Rahul Arakeri <ara...@microsoft.com>; Mike Taylor < >>>> mike...@chromium.org>; blin...@chromium.org; Robert Flack < >>>> fla...@chromium.org>; wangxianzhu <wangx...@chromium.org>; >>>> p...@chromium.org; inpu...@chromium.org; Yaroslav Shalivskyy < >>>> yshal...@microsoft.com>; Olga Gerchikov <gerc...@microsoft.com>; Sahir >>>> Vellani <sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben Mathwig < >>>> benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>> Scrollbars. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Re Linux: I'm hoping we can just use the same code on Linux so that we >>>> have overlay scrollbars everywhere. Rahul, would that work code-wise? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 3:40 PM Ian Kilpatrick <ikilp...@chromium.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Exciting! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Adding onto Rahul's answer here a little - overlay scrollbars (or >>>> scrollbars which take to zero space) already exist on other platforms >>>> (e.g. >>>> they are the default on OSX). It won't/shouldn't be a web compat concern >>>> as >>>> most websites handle this already. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> An interesting side effect of this will likely be that we'll see more >>>> sites (who are built after this change goes in) assume that scrollbars are >>>> always zero width (as this is now the default on all platforms except >>>> linux?) and as a result more content going forward being broken for those >>>> users who opt-out. >>>> >>>> (To be clear there isn't much we can do about this - but an interesting >>>> side effect). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Ian >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 2:51 PM 'Rahul Arakeri' via blink-dev < >>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Mike, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Sure, Iāve created a chromestatus entry here: >>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5693137379917824 >>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchromestatus.com%2Ffeature%2F5693137379917824&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=vfppOwtYwtmQrwqiprbugzqPulbVNcuag1WFpo5m60Q%3D&reserved=0> >>>> >>>> And yes, this proposed change is expected to have an impact on the >>>> pageās layout. In itās default state, the scrollbars will be in āminimal >>>> modeā (aka overlay scrollbars). These will *not* take up any layout >>>> space (whereas, today in Chromium, the default scrollbars take up 17px >>>> AFAIK). >>>> >>>> The users will however still have an option to āAlways show scrollbarsā >>>> via an OS setting. These *will* take up layout space (similar to what >>>> Chromium scrollbars do today). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Rahul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org> >>>> *Sent:* Friday, January 28, 2022 12:20 PM >>>> *To:* Rahul Arakeri <ara...@microsoft.com> >>>> *Cc:* blin...@chromium.org; Robert Flack <fla...@chromium.org>; >>>> wangxianzhu <wangx...@chromium.org>; p...@chromium.org; >>>> inpu...@chromium.org; Yaroslav Shalivskyy <yshal...@microsoft.com>; >>>> Olga Gerchikov <gerc...@microsoft.com>; Sahir Vellani < >>>> sahir....@microsoft.com>; Ben Mathwig <benjamin...@microsoft.com> >>>> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [blink-dev] Intent to implement: Fluent >>>> Scrollbars. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Rahul, >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Would you mind creating a chromestatus entry for this intent? (See >>>> "Step 0" at http://dev.chromium.org/blink/launching-features >>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdev.chromium.org%2Fblink%2Flaunching-features&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=oeqZVkHsRXN%2FzGeO9BceS4FNDQ9LjZfrnQZTB8Xc4Uc%3D&reserved=0> >>>> >>>> for a link). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Also, out of curiosity (because I don't know much about scrollbars) - >>>> will this proposed change have an impact on a page's layout? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> thanks, >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/28/22 2:50 PM, 'Rahul Arakeri' via blink-dev wrote: >>>> >>>> *Intent to implement: Fluent Scrollbars.* >>>> >>>> āÆ >>>> >>>> *Contact emails* >>>> >>>> Rahul Arakeri: ara...@microsoft.com >>>> >>>> Yaroslav Shalivskyy: yshal...@microsoft.com >>>> >>>> Sahir Vellani: sahir....@microsoft.com >>>> >>>> Olga Gerchikov: gerc...@microsoft.com >>>> >>>> Ben Mathwig: benjamin...@microsoft.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Visual Spec* >>>> >>>> >>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EpJnWAcPCxBQo6zPGR1Tg1NACiIJ-6dk7cYyK1DhBWw/edit >>>> >>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1EpJnWAcPCxBQo6zPGR1Tg1NACiIJ-6dk7cYyK1DhBWw%2Fedit&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122747147%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=wjV1rSuW5VI7QIGa5Zn%2BniKvbllT%2B81iqq1zjF62Zyo%3D&reserved=0> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Summary* >>>> >>>> This proposal is to modernize the Chromium scrollbars (both overlay and >>>> non-overlay) to fit the Windows 11 Fluent design language. As a part of >>>> this effort, we are proposing to update the visual appearance along with >>>> some changes to how users interact with overlay scrollbars. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Motivation* >>>> >>>> As the rest of Windows has been embracing WinUI and native Fluent >>>> controls, certain non-XAML apps like Chromium-based browsers still use the >>>> traditional (Win32 looking) scrollbars. As such, we believe that the >>>> visual >>>> appearance of scrollbars could use an update in the interest of >>>> maintaining >>>> homogeneity with the rest of Windows. >>>> >>>> In a nutshell, weāre proposing that the default scrollbars should act >>>> more like overlay scrollbars, be thinner, have insets and rounded edges. >>>> Users will still have an option to select non overlay scrollbars via the >>>> "Always show scrollbars" OS setting. Non overlay scrollbars will also be >>>> restyled to match Windows theme. For details on scrollbar styling and >>>> state >>>> transitions, please see the visual spec linked above. >>>> >>>> Also, please note that since some HTML controls (like <textarea> and >>>> <select>) depend on the ScrollbarThemes(s) that are being refreshed, they >>>> too will also get the new scrollbars. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, >>>> Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?* >>>> >>>> No, this is aimed at Windows for now. However, it can be made available >>>> on Linux too. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Ongoing technical constraints* >>>> >>>> None. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *Tracking bug* >>>> >>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1292117 >>>> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbugs.chromium.org%2Fp%2Fchromium%2Fissues%2Fdetail%3Fid%3D1292117&data=04%7C01%7Carakeri%40microsoft.com%7C2ac1a1970c5243b86f7508d9e7a78ba7%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637795529122796656%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=JVa%2FN%2FrTCNHWNnA4ZScgXpcm6a%2Fv7cDhum%2BLmcTygo0%3D&reserved=0> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> 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