Hey Emanuel, Sorry for the slow follow-up, and thanks for the background.
Avoiding breaking changes when we haven't shipped yet is against the spirit of OT. None of this meant to enable soft-launches of the sort you're describing. This is our one and only opportunity to get the API shape right; we won't get another moment at which we can iterate and improve the shape of the API. The constraints of OTs are designed to price in inconvenience for a small number of partners to iterate with us, including breaking changes. We can also run OTs in parallel to accommodate multiple variants. With that as preamble, I'm going to -1 an extension of this OT until we have a lot more clarity. Please consider this a chance to make updates you would have proposed as post-launch breaking changes, with an opening to launch a new OT or I2S for the updated feature. Are you able to perhaps join us at next week's Blink API OWNERS meeting? Or we can discuss as a one-off? Want to make sure we get on the same page and unblock you. Best, Alex On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 9:23:20 AM UTC-7 Emanuel Ziegler wrote: > Hi Alex, > > Just to quickly reply on the breaking changes and what we've learnt: we > have been in an active collaboration with Sheets on this for over 2.5 years > now with a lot of development and measurements leading up to the origin > trial. This allowed us to shape the proposal and the implementation before > that. The main goal of the trial is to confirm that our expectations hold > up in real-world scenarios and the performance numbers that we got (~40% > calculation time improvement) are perfectly in line with our expectations. > Other findings are mostly integration issues in user space but have > fortunately not challenged the proposal nor our architecture. The extension > is meant to allow us longer and broader testing on a larger variety of > sheets. > > We have made several changes during the trial and evaluated them together > with J2CL and Sheets as well as other partners, but intentionally avoided > breaking changes as these need to be propagated to Binaryen, J2Wasm and > eventually Sheets which would require weeks of interruption every time. We > know that there will be a breaking change coming once the final version of > the proposal is merged in and that we will have to adapt our implementation > before its stable release. This does not affect the functionality as the > functionality is perfectly aligned, only the op codes are going to change > <https://github.com/WebAssembly/gc/pull/372>. > > I hope this helps alleviate your concerns. > > Best, > Emanuel > > On Thu, Jul 27, 2023 at 2:19 AM Alex Russell <slightly...@chromium.org> > wrote: > >> I'd be much more likely to support the extension if there was a >> report-out on what we've learned this far, particularly given the >> increasing risks presented by big products using it (Sheets) given that >> we're proposing to stretch to 8 months with no breaking changes. >> >> Best, >> >> Alex >> >> On Wednesday, July 26, 2023 at 11:16:42 AM UTC-7 Emanuel Ziegler wrote: >> >>> On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 7:22 PM Chris Harrelson <chris...@chromium.org> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 9:43 AM Emanuel Ziegler < >>>> ecmzieg...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Chris, >>>>> >>>>> There is an extensive summary document from the Sheets colleagues >>>>> (including a tl;dr section in the beginning): go/sheets-wasm-corp-50 >>>>> We believe that error count and crash rate (mostly OOM) regressions >>>>> are caused by user space code but investigations are ongoing and we >>>>> expect >>>>> improvements over the next weeks. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks! This is a Google-internal document, can some of it be shared >>>> publicly? >>>> >>> >>> I can ask, but since these numbers are WIP on a Google-internal trial >>> with a Google product, I would be cautious. Afterﾠall, they might not tell >>> that much about the state of WasmGC as a lot of this is still heavily >>> influenced by user space code as mentioned above. The numbers are going to >>> be more meaningful once we have reached a more stable state and are ready >>> to rollﾠit out to external users. >>> >>> Jetbrains is also using the OT for Kotlin, but I'm not aware of detailed >>>>> insights. They advertised it in a talk at WasmIO >>>>> <https://seb.deleuze.fr/introducing-kotlin-wasm/>ﾠa few months back. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Would you mind asking them for feedback? Not blocking extending the OT, >>>> but feedback from OT participants is important to gather. >>>> >>> >>> Sure. Jetbrains themselves surely have feedback on WasmGC in general but >>> likely limited insights from the trial itself. They might have received >>> feedback from their partners though that I can ask them about. >>> >>> Best regards, >>>>> Emanuel >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 6:03 PM Chris Harrelson <chris...@chromium.org> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> Could you share summary feedback and learnings from the OT so far? >>>>>> The Sheets performance results sound great, anything else to share? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 7:48 AM Emanuel Ziegler < >>>>>> ecmzieg...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> We are requesting to extend our Origin Trial on WasmGC by another >>>>>>> three milestones, effectively ending with M120. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The reason is that the standardization process is taking a little >>>>>>> longer than we had hoped for and will be delayed by about three months >>>>>>> blocking the shipment of a stable version. Since Google Sheets is >>>>>>> currently >>>>>>> running user experiments using the trial with positive results >>>>>>> (currently >>>>>>> at 50% of Google corporate sheets showing ~40% calculation time >>>>>>> improvement), we would like to continue this experiment for the time >>>>>>> being >>>>>>> to gather more data, especially extending it to non-Google users before >>>>>>> shipping. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The current end milestone for the trial is M117 with the most >>>>>>> optimistic shipment of the feature happening in M119, perhaps even >>>>>>> later if >>>>>>> last minute spec changes are requested before we can reach phase 4 of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> proposal. We would therefore potentially end the trial before M120 if >>>>>>> shipment were indeed to happen sooner or use the full three milestones >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> there are further delays. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank you! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Contact emails >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ad...@chromium.org, jkumme...@chromium.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Explainer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://github.com/WebAssembly/gc/blob/master/proposals/gc/Overview.md >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://github.com/WebAssembly/function-references/blob/main/proposals/function-references/Overview.md >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Specification >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://github.com/WebAssembly/gc/tree/main/proposals/gc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Summary >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The GC proposal adds efficient support for high-level managed >>>>>>> languages to WebAssembly, via struct and array types that enable >>>>>>> language >>>>>>> compilers targeting Wasm to integrate with a garbage collector in the >>>>>>> host >>>>>>> VM. In Chrome, enabling this feature implies enabling Typed Function >>>>>>> References, which allow function references to be stored in the >>>>>>> aforementioned structs and arrays. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blink component >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Blink>JavaScript>WebAssembly >>>>>>> <https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/list?q=component:Blink%3EJavaScript%3EWebAssembly> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Search tags >>>>>>> >>>>>>> wasm <https://chromestatus.com/features#tags:wasm>, webassembly >>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/features#tags:webassembly>, gc >>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/features#tags:gc>, managed objects >>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/features#tags:managed%20objects>, wasmgc >>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/features#tags:wasmgc> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TAG review >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://github.com/w3ctag/design-reviews/issues/814 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TAG review status >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Issues addressed >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Risks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gecko: Positive >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WebKit: No signal >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Web developers: Positive Google Sheets, which is currently >>>>>>> compiling Java to JavaScript, is experimenting with using WasmGC to >>>>>>> speed >>>>>>> up their calculation engine. JetBrains is working on a Kotlin -> WasmGC >>>>>>> compiler. Dart is working on a Dart -> WasmGC compiler, in >>>>>>> collaboration >>>>>>> with Flutter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Other signals: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WebView application risks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such >>>>>>> that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based >>>>>>> applications? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Goals for experimentation >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ongoing technical constraints >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Debuggability >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, >>>>>>> Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests >>>>>>> <https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/src/+/main/docs/testing/web_platform_tests.md> >>>>>>> ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> No >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Flag name >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Requires code in //chrome? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> False >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tracking bug >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/v8/issues/detail?id=7748 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Launch bug >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://launch.corp.google.com/launch/4231622 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Estimated milestones >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OriginTrial desktop last >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 117 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OriginTrial desktop first >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 112 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OriginTrial Android last >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 117 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OriginTrial Android first >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 112 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>> >>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/6062715726462976 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Links to previous Intent discussions >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Intent to Experiment: >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/HDbvHCVFSW0 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPAU7Ryv%3D-1UFkh%2BJ5GBxMFBQ88FMa9u%3Dvbboo0hCy9xcOGgAA%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPAU7Ryv%3D-1UFkh%2BJ5GBxMFBQ88FMa9u%3Dvbboo0hCy9xcOGgAA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPAU7RwLJsFGk6XBHrBqwoG5_MNCvPyF_dLb2R_Wsy6ALCAkYw%40mail.gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAPAU7RwLJsFGk6XBHrBqwoG5_MNCvPyF_dLb2R_Wsy6ALCAkYw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "blink-dev" group. 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