LGTM2 On Mon, Mar 10, 2025 at 9:20 AM Philip Jägenstedt <foo...@chromium.org> wrote:
> The API owners discussed this again last week, considering it > alongside H265 (HEVC) codec support in WebRTC. We invited Dale Curtis, > Frank Galligan, and Henrik Boström to better understand the situation. > > The case for supporting HEVC is that it can result in a better user > experience if supported in hardware, and Henrik provided some numbers on > that in the WebRTC thread. From a platform perspective, one might also say > that web apps are at a disadvantage to native apps if they can't use the > same device capabilities. > > It remains the case that we prefer royalty-free (RF) codecs and don't want > to disincentivize their adoption/use. AV1 has already been supported for a > long time and is in wide use, so the risk in this case seems small. An > important point is that web developers cannot depend on HEVC support > exclusively, given the support numbers that Henrik shared. > > To avoid setting a precedent for future non-RF codecs, approval for HEVC > in the remaining contexts comes with some caveats: > > - The approval is only for exposing OS-provided HEVC support, not for > other OS-provided codecs, and not for browser-provided HEVC. > - That there is a well established alternative in AV1 is important. > - We're open to mitigations like Finch-disabling support for a > percentage of users to ensure that HEVC support cannot be taken for > granted. > > LGTM1 with those caveats. > > On Wed, Mar 5, 2025 at 6:50 PM Henrik Boström <h...@google.com> wrote: > >> For reference, I had some hardware availability numbers over in the I2S >> thread for H265 in WebRTC >> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/dc0e11bc-5ca2-47f8-b01b-0deedb3a1038n%40chromium.org> >> . >> >> On Tuesday, March 4, 2025 at 3:12:33 PM UTC+1 朱思达 wrote: >> >>> Given your example, it seems like `video/mp4;codecs="hev1.1.6.L120.90"` >>> is supported by Chrome but not Safari, while the opposite is true for >>> `video/mp4;codecs="hvc1"`. >>> >>> AFAIK, Safari doesn't support HEVC MediaRecorder encoding. If you are >>> talking about decoding, for decoding, safari supports both >>> `video/mp4;codecs="hvc1"` and `video/mp4;codecs="hvc1.1.6.L120.90"` >>> mimetypes, but technically, the "full" mimetypes is an ISO standard (Please >>> refer to: ISO/IEC 14496-15:2019 - Annex E), and >>> `video/mp4;codecs="hvc1"` is not incorrect. >>> >>> For MediaRecorder.isTypeSupported(), will we have the same situation? >>> Are these strings clearly defined by specs and tested in WPT? >>> >>> They are defined in >>> https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/blink/web_tests/external/wpt/mediacapture-record/MediaRecorder-canvas-media-source.https.html;l=16 >>> and >>> ISO/IEC 14496-15:2019 - Annex E. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Sida >>> From: "Philip Jägenstedt"<foo...@chromium.org> >>> Date: Tue, Mar 4, 2025, 17:18 >>> Subject: Re: [External] Re: [blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: H26x Codec >>> support updates for MediaRecorder >>> To: "朱思达"<zhu...@bytedance.com> >>> Cc: "Markus Handell"<hand...@google.com>, "Dale Curtis"< >>> dalec...@chromium.org>, "Ashley Gullen"<ash...@scirra.com>, "Mike >>> Taylor"<mike...@chromium.org>, "blink-dev"<blin...@chromium.org> >>> Thank you Sida for that breakdown, it's good to know we're not >>> overlooking any encoding or decoding surface. >>> >>> The most important question here is the one of royalty-free codecs vs >>> non-RF codecs, and the API owners will discuss this again alongside the >>> WebRTC intent. >>> >>> Poking a bit at the details, however, is it really the case that even >>> when Chrome and Safari support playing the same file, there's no codecs >>> strings that they both claim support for? Given your example, it seems >>> like `video/mp4;codecs="hev1.1.6.L120.90"` is supported by Chrome but not >>> Safari, while the opposite is true for `video/mp4;codecs="hvc1"`. >>> >>> For MediaRecorder.isTypeSupported(), will we have the same situation? >>> Are these strings clearly defined by specs and tested in WPT? >>> >>> Best regards, >>> Philip >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 20, 2025 at 4:33 AM 朱思达 <zhu...@bytedance.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Is decoding HEVC in plain <video> supported? I tried >>>> `document.createElement('video').canPlayType('video/mp4; codecs=hvc1')` >>>> which returns "probably" in Safari, but the empty string in Chrome. I can't >>>> tell from https://caniuse.com/hevc if I should expect it to be >>>> supported or not. >>>> >>>> And how about in MSE? >>>> >>>> >>>> The correct codec string should be >>>> `video/mp4;codecs="hev1.1.6.L120.90"`, that's why 'video/mp4; >>>> codecs=hvc1' is rejected on Chromium. You could try the code below to >>>> test the support: >>>> >>>> ```javascript >>>> const video = document.createElement('video'); >>>> if (video.canPlayType('video/mp4;codecs="hev1.1.6.L120.90"') === >>>> 'probably') { >>>> console.log('HEVC is supported!'); >>>> } >>>> >>>> if (MediaSource.isTypeSupported('video/mp4;codecs="hev1.1.6.L120.90"')) >>>> { >>>> console.log('HEVC is supported!'); >>>> } >>>> ``` >>>> >>>> For video decoding context, there are four major API FYI: >>>> >>>> 1. <video> + File. >>>> 2. <video> + MSE. >>>> 3. WebCodecs. >>>> 4. WebRTC. >>>> >>>> >>>> The HEVC support for the first three APIs has been enabled by default >>>> in M107 (On all platforms including: Windows, macOS, Linux, Android, >>>> ChromeOS). For the WebRTC API, there's activity happening to progress >>>> towards. >>>> >>>> Are there contexts where HEVC is not yet supported that aren't covered >>>> by this intent? WebRTC comes to mind, but are there any others? >>>> >>>> >>>> For video encoding context, there are three major API FYI: >>>> >>>> 1. WebCodecs. >>>> 2. MediaRecorder. >>>> 3. WebRTC. >>>> >>>> >>>> The HEVC support for the WebCodecs API has been enabled by default in >>>> M130 (On WIndows, macOS, Android), and for the WebRTC API, there's >>>> activity happening to progress towards. >>>> From: "Markus Handell"<hand...@google.com> >>>> Date: Thu, Feb 20, 2025, 03:40 >>>> Subject: [External] Re: [blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: H26x Codec >>>> support updates for MediaRecorder >>>> To: "Philip Jägenstedt"<foo...@chromium.org> >>>> Cc: "Dale Curtis"<dalec...@chromium.org>, "Ashley Gullen"< >>>> ash...@scirra.com>, "Mike Taylor"<mike...@chromium.org>, "blink-dev"< >>>> blin...@chromium.org>, "朱思达"<zhu...@bytedance.com> >>>> I'll need to defer definitive answers regarding <video> and MSE >>>> questions to Dale. But selecting video/mp4;codecs=hvc1.1.6.L186.B0,opus as >>>> format on >>>> https://webrtc.github.io/samples/src/content/getusermedia/record/ with >>>> MediaRecorderHEVCSupport enabled yields a video that plays back in the same >>>> window. >>>> >>>> > Are there contexts where HEVC is not yet supported that aren't >>>> covered by this intent? WebRTC comes to mind, but are there any other? >>>> >>>> Correct, WebRTC doesn't yet have support but there's activity happening >>>> to progress towards support though. What's the context of the question >>>> though, interoperability? Recorded content from MediaRecorder can't >>>> immediately be used with WebRTC connections. >>>> >>>> > Do we already support AV1 in every context where HEVC is supported or >>>> is planned? >>>> >>>> Both WebRTC and MediaRecorder have had AV1 support for a long time. >>>> I'll need to defer MSE & video support statements to Dale. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 6:02 PM Philip Jägenstedt <foo...@chromium.org> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> The API owners (Dan, Alex, Vlad, Yoav, Mike, Chris, Daniel, me) >>>>> discussed this today. We'd like to understand a bit better where HEVC is >>>>> already supported and what contexts don't yet support it. >>>>> >>>>> As mentioned, HEVC (encode and decode) is already supported in >>>>> WebCodecs. The tests on wpt.fyi are failing >>>>> <https://wpt.fyi/results/webcodecs?label=master&label=experimental&aligned&q=h265>, >>>>> but presumably that's because the VMs the tests run in don't have the >>>>> required hardware support. I tried a few of the tests and they pass on my >>>>> own Mac machine. >>>>> >>>>> Is decoding HEVC in a plain <video> supported? I tried >>>>> `document.createElement('video').canPlayType('video/mp4; codecs=hvc1')` >>>>> which returns "probably" in Safari, but the empty string in Chrome. I >>>>> can't >>>>> tell from https://caniuse.com/hevc if I should expect it to be >>>>> supported or not. >>>>> >>>>> And how about in MSE? >>>>> >>>>> Are there contexts where HEVC is not yet supported that aren't covered >>>>> by this intent? WebRTC comes to mind, but are there any other? >>>>> >>>>> Note that HEVC is called out as an example in the Blink principles of >>>>> web compatibility >>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RC-pBBvsazYfCNNUSkPqAVpSpNJ96U8trhNkfV0v9fk/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.prafhtr7ekmt>. >>>>> Wherever >>>>> royalty-free codecs like AV1 can be used, that's definitely preferable for >>>>> the Chromium project and the web. Do we already support AV1 in every >>>>> context where HEVC is supported or is planned? >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Philip >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Feb 12, 2025 at 4:33 PM 'Markus Handell' via blink-dev < >>>>> blin...@chromium.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> > Could you please request the various security, privacy, enterprise, >>>>>> etc. bits in your chromestatus entry? >>>>>> >>>>>> Done! >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 7:40 PM Dale Curtis <dalec...@chromium.org> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Sorry about that. Historically video codec changes were handled via >>>>>>> internal processes since they were aspects of the underlying Chromium >>>>>>> platform. Especially so in the case of HEVC where it requires hardware >>>>>>> support. Going forward all video codec changes will use the Blink >>>>>>> process. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - dale >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tue, Feb 11, 2025 at 9:12 AM Ashley Gullen <ash...@scirra.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As a web developer interested in Chrome's video encoding >>>>>>>> capabilities with both WebCodecs and MediaRecorder, I had no idea until >>>>>>>> reading this that Chrome actually already shipped support for HEVC >>>>>>>> encoding >>>>>>>> with WebCodecs in M130 - it doesn't appear to be listed on >>>>>>>> chromestatus.com. Could Google make sure significant updates like >>>>>>>> this are noted there? Otherwise important updates can pass us right by! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tue, 11 Feb 2025 at 16:09, Mike Taylor <mike...@chromium.org> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Could you please request the various security, privacy, >>>>>>>>> enterprise, etc. bits in your chromestatus entry? >>>>>>>>> On 2/11/25 3:56 AM, 'Markus Handell' via blink-dev wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> CC Dale Curtis as well. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 11, 2025 at 9:56:11 AM UTC+1 Markus Handell >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Contact emails: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> zhu...@bytedance.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> hand...@google.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Explainer: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Explainer: Codec support updates for MediaRecorder >>>>>>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YijhqWaeI118xqZV6Fd-UtqWpGDc-vFfFS6Dg4JEEqc/edit?tab=t.0> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <http://crbug.com/40276507>crbug.com/40276507 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> TAG review: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> N/A, small incremental change >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Summary: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Support for HEVC platform encoding was added in WebCodecs in >>>>>>>>>> Chromium M130. As a follow-up, support has been added to the >>>>>>>>>> MediaRecorder >>>>>>>>>> API in Chromium. The API now supports both MP4 and Matroska muxer >>>>>>>>>> types >>>>>>>>>> with different HEVC and H.264 mime type specifications. HEVC >>>>>>>>>> encoding is only >>>>>>>>>> supported if the user's device and operating system provide the >>>>>>>>>> necessary >>>>>>>>>> capabilities. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Link to “Intent to Prototype” >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> N/A, small incremental change and going directly for shipping. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Risks >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Interoperability and Compatibility >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gecko: Firefox 136 recently added support for decoding HEVC >>>>>>>>>> videos, see >>>>>>>>>> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1924066> >>>>>>>>>> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1924066. Standards >>>>>>>>>> position request link: >>>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/1174> >>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/1174 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> WebKit: No official signal but note that MacBooks/iPhones have >>>>>>>>>> >95% HW encode/decode support of H265 and that Safari has added >>>>>>>>>> >support for >>>>>>>>>> this codec in adjacent web APIs such as WebRTC. Standards position >>>>>>>>>> request >>>>>>>>>> link: <https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/460> >>>>>>>>>> https://github.com/WebKit/standards-positions/issues/460 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Web developers: Positive. Support implemented by ByteDance & >>>>>>>>>> Intel. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms >>>>>>>>>> (Windows, Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The support is currently limited to Windows, macOS and Android >>>>>>>>>> hosts. ChromeOS and Linux support may follow in the future when/if >>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>> platform codec availability allows. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Yes, the existing test suite >>>>>>>>>> <https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/main:third_party/blink/web_tests/external/wpt/mediacapture-record/> >>>>>>>>>> was extended with cases for the new codec strings. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Tracking bug >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <http://crbug.com/40276507>crbug.com/40276507 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> <https://chromestatus.com/feature/6375884229181440> >>>>>>>>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/6375884229181440 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org. >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/edc31811-00da-4410-bfc7-b224bb825e4fn%40chromium.org >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/edc31811-00da-4410-bfc7-b224bb825e4fn%40chromium.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org. >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/cb683232-ef5e-47f4-93fa-3e8809a0d2b5%40chromium.org >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/cb683232-ef5e-47f4-93fa-3e8809a0d2b5%40chromium.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "blink-dev" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to blink-dev+...@chromium.org. >>>>>> To view this discussion visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAJjiFfG4zq4_mUknwsG%2BLetoM_RE1fiqFKVjkAyLJ4GpSUUkCw%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAJjiFfG4zq4_mUknwsG%2BLetoM_RE1fiqFKVjkAyLJ4GpSUUkCw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "blink-dev" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to blink-dev+unsubscr...@chromium.org. > To view this discussion visit > https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAARdPYcX26Vuu5_MuRGJuqk3TWUo6RVQCvP_pGPAJp_UBdn5MA%40mail.gmail.com > <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/CAARdPYcX26Vuu5_MuRGJuqk3TWUo6RVQCvP_pGPAJp_UBdn5MA%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "blink-dev" group. 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