Hi All,

See below.

Regards
Andy

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Francois Audet [mailto:[email protected]] 
>Sent: 15 July 2009 17:19
>To: Hutton, Andrew; Alan Johnston
>Cc: [email protected]
>Subject: RE: [BLISS] draft-ietf-bliss-shared-appearances: 
>Seize vs Select
>
>I disagree. I think we need some clarification.


[Andy H] OK Clarification is always a good thing.


>We have decided already that the act of "fake publishing" a 
>"trying" state
>is OPTIONAL in this draft. This feature is really when a vendor 
>wants to mimic traditional behavior of a key system.
>

[Andy H] I Agree.

>Other people view this as an archaic limitation instead. Even in
>"pre-sip" implementations, many TDM PBXs have given up already
>on "seizing" lines when you press the button (the "seizing" only
>occurs when the call is actually made).
>

[Andy H] I Agree.

>So, we wisely opted to make this optional in the spec. The problem
>is that we have a bit of lack of clarity in a few places about what
>that means.
>
>Getting to specifics, if you look at example 10.4 of the spec.
>If you use a "selection model" instead of a "seizing" model,  then
>messages F1-F6 do not occur. And neigther would messages F10-F11. 

[Andy H] I Agree.

>
>(Note that if the Appearance agent had subscribed to HelpDeksk's
>dialog state, then there would be NOTIFY instead of F10: that is
>the subject of another discussion).
>
>If we agree on this, I can volunteer to provide text if Alan wants
>it. But I'm not sure if "selection" is the proper term. An alternative
>would be to say the line is "Seized" or "Not Seized".
>

[Andy H] I agree except that I object to is any discussion about line
selection as we will not be able to agree on what is meant by a "line"
we went over this many times already it is an an appearance index which
is "seized" or "not siezed" and not a line which many people relate to
an AOR.




>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Hutton, Andrew [mailto:[email protected]] 
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 00:55
>> To: Audet, Francois (SC100:3055); Alan Johnston
>> Cc: [email protected]
>> Subject: RE: [BLISS] draft-ietf-bliss-shared-appearances: 
>> Seize vs Select
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> If "select" is a local action in the UA to choose a "line" to 
>> use and this determines the what is in the from header then 
>> this is I believe out of scope for this draft which should 
>> not mention selecting lines or AOR's as this is a different 
>> feature. The SA draft is limited to sharing appearances of 
>> the same AOR.
>> 
>> Also if "select" is a local action at the UA that is just UI 
>> behaviour then probably no need to mention it at all.
>> 
>> Regards
>> Andy
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
>> On Behalf 
>> >Of Francois Audet
>> >Sent: 14 July 2009 22:28
>> >To: Alan Johnston
>> >Cc: [email protected]
>> >Subject: [BLISS] draft-ietf-bliss-shared-appearances: Seize 
>vs Select
>> >
>> >
>> >> I changed "select" to "select/seize" globally in the 
>> document.  I'm 
>> >> not sure it helps readability, but I think we need both terms.
>> >
>> >Here is an explanation what I meant with "seize" versus "select".
>> >I might have been using a definition of "selection" that is 
>> different 
>> >from what you had in mind.
>> >
>> >In my mind, I was equating "seizing" with the concept of actually 
>> >reserving the AOR for ones self by PUBLISHing (or NOTIFYing) the 
>> >Appearance agent of the call state "premptively".
>> >
>> >In contrast, I was using the term "selection" to mean the 
>> local action 
>> >(on the phone) of choosing which "line" to use (i.e., the "From" 
>> >header). This is local because it does not require any 
>> publication of 
>> >state to the appearance agent. The user presses a line key, no 
>> >signalling comes out immediately (and user probably hears 
>> dial tone). 
>> >When the call is eventually made, it uses that line that was 
>> "selected" 
>> >as the originator (i.e., the From header).
>> >
>> >I am proposing that if we use these definitions, then it 
>> makes it much 
>> >clearer throughout the document what we are talking about. 
>There are 
>> >lots of cases where we mean "selection or seizing" (because the 
>> >PUBLISH/ SUBSCRIBE is optional), and in other cases, we 
>> really mean the 
>> >"seizing".
>> >
>> >So, for example, in 10.4, messages F1-F2 are actually a 
>> "seizing", not 
>> >merely a "selection".
>> >
>> >Anyways, just think about it. 
>> >
>> >I think there are people who would want to implement the 
>> "line seizure"
>> >concept, and people who would NOT want to implement it. If 
>> it's clear 
>> >what "seizure" means, then it makes it obvious in the text 
>> what is the 
>> >optional part.
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >BLISS mailing list
>> >[email protected]
>> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/bliss
>> >
>> 
>
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