[uucdigest] Friday, February 11 2000 Volume 03 : Number 245 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Visit http://www.bubbaclub.com | www.bimmers.com - "serving enthusiasts on the 'net" | Visit http://www.bimmer.org - ultimate BMW bulletin boards! | Subscribe to the Zionsville Autosport Parts Digest: | http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com/majordomo.htm ����������������������������������������� In this BMW UUC Digest: [uuc] air bags [uuc] RE: <WOB> Airbags - new technology! [uuc] Anyone got the facts? RE: [uuc] Stupid!! - Really? [uuc] Air bag debate [uuc] Door locks (not airbags!) RE: [uuc] Air Bags. [uuc] Airbags [uuc] Re: auto-locking doors & exploding battery cables (was door locks & such) [uuc] Re: Anyone got the facts? [uuc] <E34> Suspension woes, found the culprit?? RE: [uuc] RE: <WOB> Airbags Re: [uuc] RE: belts, bags, tall guys perhaps the salve is a SAV ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:16:52 -0800 From: "Leif Anderberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] air bags My daughter lives today because of the air bag in her 318ti. She rear ended a Cadillac Seville, who was standing still. She was going over 40mph when she hit the Caddy. The front of the ti was gone - GONE! Virtually all of it was either underneath the car or spread out all over the highway. Tina got chemical burns in her face and on her upper torso - but no broken bones and she walked away from it. After seeing this, I wouldn't have another car without the airbag. Period! Regards, Leif 2002 AD Please include same subject in reply ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:13:34 -0600 From: Michael Weishaar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] RE: <WOB> Airbags - new technology! And airbags help you in a minor roll over .... how? I thing it is OK to debate the use of airbags, but let's not start comparing them to something totally impractical for the street (cage and harnesses). Me? I want to have that cool car-filling, quick-setting foam that they had in Demolition Man. Now THAT was cool. Michael "Fadeev, Alex" wrote: > > > I'll take a roll cage and five point harness over airbags any day. > > And you will crack your head on the roll cage in a minor roll over. > Congratulations and say hello to Darwin for us! > > alex f ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:12:42 -0600 From: Scott Ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Anyone got the facts? Geez, there are a lot of long winded people out there in Bimmerland. Can anyone pull on long pants and give me cold hard facts about airbag efficacy, or is it just so much fun throwing around innuendo that we're blithly ignoring truth? Every study I remember reading, Airbags prevented 40 or 50 serious injuries for every 1 they caused... Scott 186,282 miles per second: It isn't just a good idea, it's the law! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:15:02 -0800 From: "John Coffin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Stupid!! - Really? Head-on into another car. I applied brakes without turning to avoid a side impact. The other driver fell asleep and cross the double yellow lane into me. The police estimate the speed of my car to be 20mph and 40 for the other car. The other driver had an airbag. From what I heard he had cut and bruises from his eyeglasses burying into his face and a broken leg from the pedals going into his legs. I didn't heard if he had his seat belt on. The funny thing is I don't like the airbags in the steering wheel but I like the idea of side airbags. Now if I can have an airbag on the rear of the car to protect it from rear end accidents! - -John - -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Gary Derian Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 11:24 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [uuc] Stupid!! - Really? What did you hit at 60? My example (sorry, I omitted the impacted object) was 30 mph into the proverbial brick wall. Hitting anything softer than that will drastically reduce your injuries. I am not defending the airbag standards as they exist, just pointing out that they do help and it doesn't make sense to disconnect them without a good reason. My mother-in-law is 67 years old and 4'10" tall. I have disconnected her air bag, but not mine. If airbags had been mandated to work with belted passengers, the threshold for deployment would be much higher (20 to 25 mph rather than 10 to 12 mph) and they would be smaller and deploy more slowly. That would have been a better solution to safety. Unfortunately the safety Nazis use statistics to prove their pre-conceived idea rather than using the data to deduce an effective plan. Correlation does not infer causality. Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > I can say from experience in 60mph head on crash, my seat belts did not damage > my ribs, internal organs, or hit my head on the steering wheel. I had a mark > on my shoudler and a bruised knee. > > If air bags only save 175lb males, it's going to be a lonely place. > > -John > > In frontal impacts above 30 mph, a single diagonal seat belt will damage > your ribs and internal organs. Also your head will hit the wheel and your > neck will get severely strained. These are the circumstances where an air > bag will help. We can debate what federal regulations should have been but > the fact is air bags are here so why not use them? Even if they provide > benefit in only 5% of crashes, we should take advantage of that. Especially > if you are near the 175 lb healthy male that they were designed for. If you > are a short elderly woman, you should disconnect the air bags because they > will hurt you. > > The federal regulations are flawed by mandating that air bags be designed > for those who don't wear belts instead of designing them for those who do > wear belts. Regardless, they still offer a benefit for belted passengers > who are properly positioned. > > Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:06:23 -0500 From: "Edwards, Robert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Air bag debate Gary wrote: - - -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Gary Derian Sent: Friday, February 11, 2000 8:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [uuc] Stupid!! - Really? In frontal impacts above 30 mph, a single diagonal seat belt will damage your ribs and internal organs. Also your head will hit the wheel and your neck will get severely strained. These are the circumstances where an air bag will help. We can debate what federal regulations should have been but the fact is air bags are here so why not use them? Even if they provide benefit in only 5% of crashes, we should take advantage of that. Especially if you are near the 175 lb healthy male that they were designed for. If you are a short elderly woman, you should disconnect the air bags because they will hurt you. The federal regulations are flawed by mandating that air bags be designed for those who don't wear belts instead of designing them for those who do wear belts. Regardless, they still offer a benefit for belted passengers who are properly positioned. Gary Derian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Bob says (bit of a WOB): Here is another data point from personal experience -- a few years ago, I was the victim (we are pretty sure) of an "accident troller" -- someone who deliberately causes an accident for insurance fraud. I was driving a Mazda 626 with the POS stock all-season rubber. Moderate traffic, moving about 40-45. About a 3 block stretch of road is wet from a construction job, complete with slimy mud. An old junker Lincoln pulls past me in the left lane, pulls in front of me just as we reach the wet spot, and suddenly slams on his brakes just as he reaches the dry road, and cuts his wheels toward the curb so he stops solid. I slide into him doing about 40, the tires might as well be skis (with front wheel drive, can't even steer away from the wreck). Damage to him, minimal (like hitting a brick wall). About $3K damage to my car. But he has 3 buddies in the car, and they're all yelling "whiplash, call 911"...well, you get the idea. Insurance company handled it. However, the interesting thing is that car had only driver's side airbag. I'm about 190, and was driving. Passenger a 125 pound woman. Both wearing our seatbelts, and the collision was dead-on frontal, so we should have both been subjected to about the same forces. My injuries: broke my glasses, minor "floor burn" abrasions on my face from the airbag, generally shook up and discombobulated. That's it. Passenger injuries: 2 broken ribs, bruised / strained cervical vertibrae (neck brace for a month), massive bruising across the rib cage including a perfect imprint of the diagonal shoulder belt in blue and purple, and matching bruises across her upper abdomen from the lap belt. This may be a "made for airbags" accident, I don't know. But I'm glad I had one, and she was NOT happy she did not! Obligatory BMW content: the following year we bought a RWD car with good brakes, real tires, and that can be steered out of trouble, even in slippery conditions. In addition, it's a blast to drive ;-) Regards, Bob Edwards '97 M3/4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:22:24 -0500 From: Don Eilenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Door locks (not airbags!) Grant Low queried: >Speaking of doors in crashes, I know some people always lock their doors >when they start moving, and a lot of cars do that automatically. What is >the logic behind this? Are locked doors less likely to "pop" open in a >crash? Wouldn't the doors being locked just make it harder to get out of >the car in a potentially explosive wreck? If I could walk without further >injury, the first thing I would do in a wreck is get out of and away from >the car. > >Grant The lock has no effect on the structural integrity of the door.. ie, it won't make it stay closed in a crash. It WILL help keep it closed in a car-jacking situation, which is why most people lock the doors when they start up the car.. And as far as being locked in - BMW's release the door lock with the use of the interior door latch, plus they release them automatically in the event of a crash (and I believe this goes back as far as they've been putting the central locking system in the cars.. I know the '87 535i had it - as does the '99 M-Coupe). ____D_o_n__________S_p_r_i_n_g__L_a_k_e__H_t_s____________�1946________ Don Eilenberger, Spring Lk Hts, NJ http://www.monmouth.com/~deilenberger ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:30:32 -0600 From: Ted Arneson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Air Bags. Rant on. The ignorant people are the ones who believe everything a government agency tells them. The NHTSA has already admitted that they screwed up by forcing airbags on us when they did. Some frickin' politician had an agenda and rammed these undeveloped devices down the manufacturers throats. I'd love to see that pinhead hung by the short ones. Who ended up paying: we did! The motoring public became the test subjects AND had to fork out the funds to do so. This "life saver" also cost us more in insurance, as well. Guess they cost a bit to replace if stolen or popped in a parking lot incident. Let's not go where they neglected to do any real world testing on ALL sizes of drivers/passengers. Remember, these same bureaucrats are the propogandists who started the "55 saves lives" campaign. Only took 15 years to figure out that was a bunch o'crap. Instead of proposing higher levels of driver training or vehicle safety inspections, these cretins continually work on the buzz words and catch phrases to fulfill a self-serving agenda. Don't be fooled by the man behind the curtain! Everyone is so sold on this airbag propoganda, now there is a manufacturers race to see who can put the most airbags in a single vehicle. Reminds me of the Caravan cupholder bragging. The sad part is that people will gladly fork over the cash for this. Rather, they have to in order to get the flagship models. Imagine wacking something and having $5k in fender damage and $15k in airbag replacements. Higher requirements for driver education and vehicle safety (good tires, sound suspension, lights work, etc.) would go a lot further than airbags, IMO. Rant off. Ted Arneson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 11:55:39 -0800 From: "Kevin Kelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Airbags Gary Derian wrote: :In frontal impacts above 30 mph, a single diagonal seat :belt will damage your ribs and internal organs. I put my E21 323i (with small euro bumpers) head on in to a wall at about 50 mph (bald A008 tires make it easy to hydroplane) about 10 years ago and walked away from it. I wouldn't want to do it again but I felt fine after unbuckling the stock single seat belt. :Also your head will hit the wheel and your neck will get :severely strained. These are the circumstances where :an air bag will help. I hit pretty hard and you could see the tranny from inside the car because it ripped the driveshaft tunnel open when the wall pushed the engine back. Unless you are real short, your seat belt is not working or you hit a wall at over 100 mph and push the steering wheel in to your head I don't see how your head will ever hit the steering wheel of a car in an accident. I'm not going to disconnect my BMWs airbag, but I think that putting over a half dozen airbags in many new cars is a joke. The marketing guys have somehow convinced many people that they are not safe without tons of airbags. Kevin Kelly BMW CCA 50039 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:43:09 -0500 From: ben keyes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: auto-locking doors & exploding battery cables (was door locks & such) Grant Low wrote: > Speaking of doors in crashes, I know some people always lock their doors > when they start moving, and a lot of cars do that automatically. What is > the logic behind this? Are locked doors less likely to "pop" open in a > crash? Wouldn't the doors being locked just make it harder to get out of > the car in a potentially explosive wreck? If I could walk without further > injury, the first thing I would do in a wreck is get out of and away from > the car. newer BMW's (E39, E46 newer 7's I think) have a feature in them that in the event of a crash event strong enough to trigger airbags & the like the doors unlock & a pyrotechnic charge severs the battery cable to eliminate potential sparks. I think the auto-locking "feature" is intended to keep people from open the doors by accident or to prevent people getting in when you come to a stop. many people find it annoying when they typically get into a car & pull a short distance & then let in others (like pulling out of a garage or picking people up form in front of a resturant). most systems have a locking threshold at a lower spped & some can be de-activated. Ben Keyes '99 M coupe - no auto-locking '88 M5 - ditto many, many miles spent in Explorer's with auto-locking ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 15:41:57 -0600 From: Scott Ferguson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: Anyone got the facts? Well, just disregard the whole thing. Looks like folks started delivering facts in #242 right after I typed this thing out. Scott >Geez, there are a lot of long winded people out there in Bimmerland. Can anyone >pull on long pants and give me cold hard facts about airbag efficacy, or is it >just so much fun throwing around innuendo that we're blithly ignoring truth? > >Every study I remember reading, Airbags prevented 40 or 50 serious injuries for >every 1 they caused... > >Scott 186,282 miles per second: It isn't just a good idea, it's the law! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:45:00 EST From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [uuc] <E34> Suspension woes, found the culprit?? Hey Again, Just had my buddy rock the strut tower while I looked with a flashlight and it appears that the edge of my strut is bumping into my lower control arm. Looks like I must have bent it somehow. Maybe it was when the assembly fell a couple feet to the floor when we removed the bolt on top of the mount?? :o) :o) Anyway, does anyone see a problem with just bending it back, You know, good ole' fashioned hack mechanic stuff?? Have any ideas on what to look for if that is not the culprit?? Sorry for the previous post, I guess I jumped the gun. Don't forget, if anyone has some valve adjustment advice, please feel free to send it my way. Thanks in advance. Best, Rory '90 525i ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:50:48 -0500 From: "Cagann, Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] RE: <WOB> Airbags My favorite airbag type is the kind Clark Griswold had in the Family Truckster with Optional Rally Package. It was made by Glad. Alex Cagann 88///M5 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 16:45:32 -0500 From: "Pat Donahue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] RE: belts, bags, tall guys perhaps the salve is a SAV Hmm. Sounds like BMW built you a SAV. I'll ask around about tall dummies at NHTSA if I remember this Monday. Geeeze (is there another type of death I don't know about? :-D ) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Bolhuis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > That reminds me again how ticked off so many cars make me. What > about us tall 200 pounders? I would experience instant fatal death in > any crash in an M Coupe because my head sticks through the sunroof. > In several other cars, my forehead sits mere inches from the front of > the roof - I can't see up at all as the roof curves down just a bit > before the glass begins. ... > I would love to see the added abuse a 6'4" NHTSA dummy would take in > many popular cars today. I have resigned myself to dying horribly > with my quivering brains smeared across a bloody headliner. So I > drive a ragtop. My brother has 6" on me, but no death wish, so he > sticks to pickup trucks only... > > -- > John Bolhuis ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #245 ************************** _________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | Bonneville Motorwerks . http://www.bonnevillemotorwerks.com | Circle Tire Co. (used & classic BMW parts) e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Curry's Auto Service . http://www.currysauto.com | Eurosport . http://www.eurosport-hp.com | Koala MotorSport . http://www.koalamotorsport.com | Taylor BMW - http://www.taylorbmw.com - Doc Bimmer! | The Ultimate Garage . http://www.ultimategarage.com | UUC Motorwerks . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com | Zionsville Autosport . http://www.zionsvilleautosport.com ����������������������������������������
