[uucdigest] Wednesday, February 26 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6147
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Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: [uuc] RE: [E30Group] Custom Chip Programming Re: [uuc] Custom Chip Programming Re: [uuc] Custom Chip Programming [uuc] Re: Custom Chip Programming [uuc] Re: Custom Chip Programming Re: [uuc] Custom Chip Programming RE: [uuc] Re: Custom Chip Programming RE: [uuc] Re: Custom Chip Programming ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:25:59 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Couvillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] RE: [E30Group] Custom Chip Programming Kuldeep (and everyone), Here are some criteria for the setup I'm looking for: 1) No piggyback anythings, no extra boxes hacked into the factory wiring harness 2) Tunability on the fly 3) Ability to change settings once I get a "final" setup 4) Nothing that can be accidentally mucked with (I'm talking external dials and such) 5) Total cost of all of the hardware I'll need to tune: under $400 Taking these criteria into account, the only plan of action is to 1) disassemble the code, 2) use a ROM emulator -- something like the ROMuLator (some Googling can find it for you) -- and some PC-compatible software to be able to tune everything on the fly, and then 3) burn the final chip with an EPROM programmer. Laptops are $50 all day on eBay; cheaper if you can stand a 486. The ROMuLator is ~$175, and chip programmers are $100 - $150. This is within my budget constraints. Building my own emulator will cut the costs by about $100 and shopping around for a cheap programmer will cut the costs by another $50 - $100. So, for the cost of a new TMS chip ($250), I can teach myself how this stuff works on my own and have the eternal ability to custom tune my ECU. Brad Couvillon - --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > brad, > > If the main aim is to tune the maps the why not look > at one of the piggy > back controllers - absolutely loads of time saved > and pretty much a lot > of fun, > > plus you get to learn loads about the maps and the > hell they create when > thou mess too much... > > of course if teh aim is to get the motronic to do a > song and a dance > when you get in and turn the key, then assembley > language n EPROM > progging'll do it for ya ;) > > Oh and they aint tooo expensive...try > www.perfectpower.com think they > were about $500 thereabouts? Hear really good things > about it and know > of a fella who uses one of their older ones to good > effect on his > radically moddedd 89 325i...dont know where he is > nowadays or i'd ask > himf or more details.. > > Good luck ! __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:35:09 -0800 (PST) From: Brad Couvillon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Custom Chip Programming Michael, See my replies below. . . - --- Michael McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've been looking to do the same thing for a while > now. Most people just > tell me "get a Jim C chip" or the likes. then I tell > them that i want more > fuel and greatly retarded timing. then they look at > me funny. then they find > out I have a turbo strapped to the side of my M20. > Nobody makes a chip for my application. I understand how you feel. I know of a few things that you can do. More on that later. > So when I did my research on this, I found out a > decent amount. > what I do know is: > -the eprom in question is a 27256 (27C256?) Is this true for all Motronic 1.x or just for 1.3? My ECU is Motronic 1.0, and I was told by Mark D'Sylva that my chip is 2732. > -it is easily emulated. (black box outside the ecu > plugged into the ECU slot > for the eprom, and can have its values changed on > the fly) > -cost to build a good emulator is about $50. Wonderful news! Maybe we can collaborate on this since we're both in it for the same thing (although my engine is just atmo-fed right now). > -Knowing what values in the tables do what... > priceless. nobody wants to > share this info. chances are I could figure it out > eventually, but what a > pain in the ass. Look at the comments I posted on the E30 Yahoo group list earlier this evening (Tuesday). There is plenty of information on there to get you started. Most of it's from Mr. Reverse Engineer himself, Jim Conforti. Or, you can search through the DIY EFI (www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi) archives around January 1997 to find the thread entitled "Motronic 1.1" that has most of the information I've gathered from that list. > I then went and looked at standalone fuel systems, > and combining that with > something like a standalone MSD ignition box. put > that setup together and > you are getting into Tec3 and Haltech price range. > around $1000. and for > that money, I'd rather have a haltech E6K. Four figures for tuning that you can do for about 1/8 that cost is entirely too much. Whoever mentioned custom chip tuning being a waste of money must not have read info about this standalone system. > so now i'm back to fighting to get a turbo M20 to > run right with a good > amount of boost. as it stands now, its far from > perfect. 2.7L M20 motor with > 8.5:1 CR running 10psi of boost. For a while, when > it was really cold > outside, I was able to trick it into running just > over 14psi on the 2.5L M20 > with water injection. That was perhaps the only time > it ran great. Its had > plenty of good days, but not as many great ones. > That day really showed me > its true potential. Its not too often that you can > make a M20 powered E34 > smoke the tires rolling into 3rd gear in a straight > line. You might be interested in an idea I'm hoping to apply to my M20-powered e28 in the future. E-mail me privately to hear what I'm thinking about. > I'm all for experimentation. I'm willing to put in > the time to do something > like this, but nobody that knows anything wants to > provide any proper > guidance, which is rather frustrating. At least with > the turbo I could look > at what others had done on things like supras and > the likes and get ideas. > Even ask questions and get feedback on ideas. No > such luck with the ECU > programming idea. The only person that has been > willing to give any > information has been Mark D'Sylva. He was actually > extremely helpful with my > initial questions. I don't think that he'd be > willing to send a list of > "these values control this" though. (apparently he > does his chips manually > with a hex editor.) Like I said, check out the DIY EFI list archives. You should be able to find a good deal of info from owners of Motronic-controlled Porsche 944 Turbos. > I graduate from Georgia Tech in a couple of months, > and when I get a job, I > don't think I'll be as willing to play/fight with > this stuff. I'll just > shell out the money for a proper standalone ECU. > Which is sad because I > definately won't learn as much doing that. The > annoying part is that I'll > have another degree in CS, and so this stupid little > motronic ECU is, in the > grand scale of things, not that complicated. but > there is no information out > there for me to start with. Agreed. But don't quit now! It can be and has been done!!!! Brad Couvillon '87 528e www.fatdaddybmw.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 01:51:28 -0500 From: James Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Custom Chip Programming From: "Brad Couvillon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Four figures for tuning that you can do for about 1/8 > that cost is entirely too much. Whoever mentioned > custom chip tuning being a waste of money must not > have read info about this standalone system. No, four figures for what Jim C can do with the Bosch ECU. We've yet to see your ability. Jim Moran '88 M6 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 23:21:41 -0800 (PST) From: John Bolhuis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: Custom Chip Programming On Wed, 26 Feb 2003, James Moran wrote: > You all win. Hackers are great. Any Joe can rewrite a Bosch ECU > and isn't wasting time or money doing so. Well, no time for that now. I gotta rebuild my sarcasm meter. ...damn thing just exploded again. - -- "It is an honor to be Cookie Monster." -Sesame Street spokeswoman Audrey Shapiro ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 00:17:05 -0800 (PST) From: Carlos Lopez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: Custom Chip Programming Jim M. wrote: >Any Joe can rewrite a Bosch ECU and >isn't wasting time or money doing so. I don't think Brad is any Joe. Hell anyone that can outrun a hard charging marine and get their picture in the Roundel isn't the avg. Joe! Now if he could just finish that auto to manual conversion on an E28 in one weekend... :-) I'm pretty sure Jose S. (Canary Island Macau blau E30 M3) is pretty much there figuring out all the Motronic code for the E30 M3 DME. Even Jim C seemed impressed when he posted some code from his E30 M3 chip on the list and Jose knew exactly what it was. In fact we've used Jose's notes on E30 M3 DME repairs twice to successfully repair the loping idle condition on an E30 M3 when the ICV fries some of the transistors on the DME. There's a nice failure mode for you in a BMW, bad ICV toasts a good DME (what $800 or so?). We shouldn't try to discourage folks like Brad or Micheal McC. from learning this stuff it may prove very useful to folks on this list or at least to their friends in the future. :-) Carlos 91 M3 <--with a Dinan chip that kind of sucks compared to a Jim C one 88 iS <--completely stock __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:43:21 -0800 From: "cnrbishop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Custom Chip Programming James Moran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> huffed: > You all win. Hackers are great. Any Joe can rewrite a Bosch ECU and isn't > wasting time or money doing so. Jim, I think you're missing the point, bigtime. The original poster wants to LEARN something new, and accomplish something in the process. Modifying the Bosch ECU is his personal challenge. How on earth could that be considered wasting time or money? Everything I've learned outside of my formal education is because of pure interest, intuition, and personal challenge. And apparently, there are several others on this list that think just like I do. I just don't buy into the whole "make more money so you can pay someone else" attitude. If you can learn to do it for yourself, then do it. Sure, Jim C has reverse-engineered Bosch ECUs. Does that mean that because he has, nobody else should attempt it? Since BMW spent millions of dollars on engineering, does that mean a component or system on a BMW can't be modified or altered for a gain in performance, strength, or reliability? Because, after all, they're BMW engineers, and anyone else is a "hack", right? (Korman, Turner, Brett, Jim C, Ireland, etc) I hope you see the point I'm (we're) trying to make. Maybe to YOU, reverse engineering a Bosch ECU is a waste of time and money. But to someone else, it's an educational and personal growth opportunity. Chris Bishop ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 08:50:20 -0500 From: "Chris Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Re: Custom Chip Programming See, with all due respect, you're still missing the point. Brad's not "wasting" anything, as he is doing this for fun/personal satisfaction/better than finance homework/possibly save some money/whatever. Why you don't want him to go for it is the puzzling part. I have a degree in mechanical engineering with an automotive specialty. If I tried this, would I be a hack? I can guarantee you, that at this point in time, Brad is far more qualified to attempt this than me. I would also bet that even if he fails at his attempt, he will learn a great deal doing so. Seems to me like he can't really go wrong. I wish I had the knowledge to help. Chris B. '94 325i > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of James Moran > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 1:08 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [uuc] Re: Custom Chip Programming > > > You all win. Hackers are great. Any Joe can rewrite a Bosch > ECU and isn't > wasting time or money doing so. > > Jim Moran > '88 M6 > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 09:11:43 -0500 From: "Chris Baker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Re: Custom Chip Programming Yeah, what he said. And let me know when you figure out how to get another 50 horsepower out of my E36 325i's computer. Hey, how come that '88 is "completely stock"? Isn't it supposed to be a race car by now? It's not like you need working knees to wrench on a car... Chris B. > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Carlos Lopez > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 3:17 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [uuc] Re: Custom Chip Programming > > > Jim M. wrote: > >Any Joe can rewrite a Bosch ECU and > >isn't wasting time or money doing so. > > I don't think Brad is any Joe. Hell anyone that can outrun a hard > charging marine and get their picture in the Roundel isn't the avg. > Joe! Now if he could just finish that auto to manual conversion on an > E28 in one weekend... :-) > > I'm pretty sure Jose S. (Canary Island Macau blau E30 M3) is pretty > much there figuring out all the Motronic code for the E30 M3 > DME. Even > Jim C seemed impressed when he posted some code from his E30 > M3 chip on > the list and Jose knew exactly what it was. In fact we've used Jose's > notes on E30 M3 DME repairs twice to successfully repair the loping > idle condition on an E30 M3 when the ICV fries some of the transistors > on the DME. There's a nice failure mode for you in a BMW, bad ICV > toasts a good DME (what $800 or so?). We shouldn't try to discourage > folks like Brad or Micheal McC. from learning this stuff it may prove > very useful to folks on this list or at least to their friends in the > future. :-) > > Carlos > 91 M3 <--with a Dinan chip that kind of sucks compared to a Jim C one > 88 iS <--completely stock ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6147 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . 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