[uucdigest] Thursday, March 6 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6184
_________________________________________________________________ | | Search the ARCHIVES: | http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Visit Richard Nott's Ultimate BMW Database: | http://www.bmwdatabase.com | | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Technical Problems? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: Re: [uuc] Play in quick-release steering wheel? Re: [uuc] WAS inexpensive helmets, NOW roll bars and harnesses Re: [uuc] Reconstructing Ashley Bergman's fatal collision( formerly WA state to regulate racing schools) Re: [uuc] P38 Remote & Key RE: [uuc] WAS inexpensive helmets, NOW roll bars and harne Re: [uuc] Turning off Brake-Assist Re: [uuc] Reconstructing Ashley Bergman's fatal collision (formerly WA state to regulate racing schools) RE: [uuc] Turning off Brake-Assist Re: [uuc] Turning off Brake-Assist ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 23:42:45 -0500 From: "KMS - Brett Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Play in quick-release steering wheel? It sure makes working on the interior a lot easier, especially with big wings on the seat and a good cage. One of the next mods to Kathy's MCoupe will be a removeable wheel. - ----------------------------------------------------- BMW Special Tool Rentals Pay per incident tech support - ----------------------------------------------------- Brett Anderson KMS (440) 338 1650 www.koalamotorsport.com OSS committee member - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael McCoy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > what would you need a quick release wheel for anyway? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 23:48:20 -0500 From: "Stan Jackson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] WAS inexpensive helmets, NOW roll bars and harnesses You have to go with statistics and probability. Plane crashes are a horrible way to die. Will you never fly again? Even though flying is much safer than driving a car? Rollover accidents with roof collapse that result in death or serious injury solely because someone had a harness VS. all other accidents I wonder which one is more likely to occur .... Stan >Joe Elwell wrote: > The rollovers I've seen (without bar/cage) have all involved a fair amount > of roof movement - enough so that someone constrained in a harness could be > injured by it. The thought of that particular injury gives me the creeps. > I'm with Mark on this one. > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 20:52:45 -0800 From: marco <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Reconstructing Ashley Bergman's fatal collision( formerly WA state to regulate racing schools) And your point is? The car she was driving was "softer" so she probably decelerated at less G than Dale? So what, they're both dead. It's a moot point anyway. Without a 300 page report like the NASCAR one on Dale we'll never really know why she died. Hell that 300 page report isn't exactly definitive. Marco Gary Derian wrote: > NASCAR cars are very stiff in front and have little energy absorption from > crush. > Gary Derian > > > > >>No arguments that she (and Earnhardt") had survivable impacts. My point, >>maybe poorly worded, was that even relatively low speed impacts can be > > fatal > >>without properly used safety equipment. I doubt anyone would say > > Earnhardt > >>didn't have proper equipment, you could argue the open face helmet issue > > but > >>everything I've read said it wasn't the chin blow that killed him. > > Whether > >>she had "proper" safety equipment is unknown. At least to us it is. > > Maybe > >>that is what the WA state legislators are trying to do, make sure everyone >>has the proper safety equipment and uses it correctly. GFL to them. >> >> >> >>Marco >>full face helmet >>HANS device >>10lb Halon Fire System >>Yada^3 >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 3:46 PM >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Subject: RE: [uuc] Reconstructing Ashley Bergman's fatal collision( >>formerly WA state to regulate racing schools) >> >> >> >>>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>>>I'm surprised that a 50 mph impact killed her, though. Sounds like >>>>the car could have used better safety equipment. >>> >>"Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>>At the time of the impact with the wall, the No. 3 car was traveling at >>>approximately 157-160 mph. The car hit the wall at a heading angle of >>>approximately 55-59 degrees. Its trajectory angle at the time of impact >> >>was >> >>>approximately 13-14 degrees. The No. 3 car experienced a 'crash pulse' >> >>of >> >>>approximately 80 milliseconds in duration. In other words, it was in >>>deceleration for approximately 80 milliseconds. ... Its velocity changed >> >>by >> >>>approximately 42-44 mph as a result of the wall impact. The heading >> >>angle, >> >>>trajectory angle, crash pulse duration, lack of rotation and (velocity >>>change) all made this a very severe impact. >>> >>>So if she hit the wall head on at 50mph and decelerated to 0 mph in a >>>short period of time....... >> >>....she should have survived. >>Unless she, or whomever prepared her car, was a subscriber to Earnhardt's >>approach to safety (wont happen to me). >>Earnhardt wore an open face helmet, sat too close to the steering wheel >>and had personally traded proper harness installation for 'comfort'. In >>the end his head hit the steering wheel and snapped his neck. >> >>alex f >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 23:56:04 -0500 From: Ed MacVaugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] P38 Remote & Key We'd love to help you Kevin, but this is a BMW list and we mean real BMWs, not Ford built BMW designs . . . . ;-) Ed Kevin Kelly wrote: >I just put a hide-a-key under the P38 and I remember hearing about a problem >that someone had when they opened a vehicle that had been locked with the >remote using the key. Was this a strange problem or is it always a problem >to unlock a newer Range Rover with the key if the remote was used to lock >it? > >Kevin Kelly > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:18:38 -0500 From: "Dennis Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] WAS inexpensive helmets, NOW roll bars and harne Kevin wrote: >Dennis, Your argument is specious because your units are arbitrary. The real cost of not having a full complement of safety equipment appropriate for the conditions and circustances in the ultimate cost in the event of that "low probability" event. ________________ Ah, but by your logic, your argument is every bit as specious, Kevin. Like I said, my units are arbitrary -- they are arbitrary because I don't know what they are. I haven't done a study, I haven't done experiments, I haven't done any research as to whether others have done studies. I completely acknowledged that. What you don't point out is that you haven't done any of the above. And as far as I've seen, no one else that's a proponent of the no-harness-without-roll-bar theory has done it either. So, bottom line, NO ONE can calculate any values for the COST or BENEFIT measures -- so who is to say that the benefits clearly outweigh the costs, or vice versa? Of course, I can use logic and reason and experience to extrapolate something that I'm comfortable with, but I'm sure as heck not going to argue that my conclusions should be taken as gospel. Or even that persuasive. My point -- people need to consider all all of the benefits and costs, and the value of each, before arriving at a conclusion. Since we apparently don't have any scientific proof that wearing a harness without a roll bar actually INCREASES or REDUCES injuries, how can one proclaim as scientific fact one way or another? As Stan said, wearing a stock seatbelt on the street might cause you to drown if your car ends up in the water and the belt jams and you're unable to free yourself. But although the cost is great (death), the probability of that happening is very low, compared to the benefit of the seat belt saving you in a regular collision. To make that point scientifically, I can point to the number of regular crashes v. accidents where the vehicle has ended up under water. Unfortunately, although I can cite anecdotal evidence up the wahzoo, I can't point to any statistics comparing rollover accidents v. non-rollover accidents at the track in a DE environment. So, feel free to disagree with my conclusions. Or feel free to calculate your own cost/benefit analysis for your own, personal situation. But don't say that my argument is specious because "my units are arbitrary" -- they are arbitrary for you too. vty, - --Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:20:10 -0500 From: "Stan Jackson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Turning off Brake-Assist Ummmm, yeah sure, so long as saying that something is OPPOSITE is the same as saying it is a different device ... In response to the symptoms described he says, "This is not ABS doing this." Actually, it is ABS. ABS that was triggered by the Brake-Assist. Simply, no he did not say the same thing. The ARTICLE on the other hand, does say almost exactly what I said. Stan mike wrote > uh, didnt john say the EXACT same thing? > > Mike > - ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stan Jackson Jr> > > Not exactly. Brake-Assist is not the same as ABS nor is it the opposite > of > > ABS. Any more than the brake calipers are the same or the opposite of > ABS. > > They are different devices performing different functions. > > > > Brake-Assist senses when the driver *appears* to be panic braking and > > increases the braking force to the extent necessary to trigger the ABS. > > > > Stan > > > > > > > From: "John Coffin wrote: > > > I think some are confused. This is not ABS doing this. Mercedes has a > > new > > > feature which pressurizes the brakes (opposite of ABS) if it senses a > hard > > > stop. Kinda of like power steering. I was wondering how this would > apply > > > in the real world. > > > > > > Here is more info > > > http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_010501.htm > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 00:22:10 -0500 From: Brian Daley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Reconstructing Ashley Bergman's fatal collision (formerly WA state to regulate racing schools) Yeah it's scary, especially considering that nothing I've seen so far suggests that any kind of regulation would have prevented the accident. Until I read the web page I assumed that the accident resulted from some kind of negligence or failure on the part of the racing school - that doesn't seem to be the case. Kinda reminds me of the people who wanted to force skiiers to wear helmets after Sonny Bono and what's-his-name Kennedy died in skiing accidents within a couple weeks of each other. Of course politicians are much less interested in actually solving problems than in creating the appearance that they're taking action to solve the problem. Of course they can never admit that more laws can't solve every problem in life. Look at the recent DC sniper case. The politicians were all screaming for more gun laws. How about making a serious effort to enforce the hundreds (thousands?) of gun laws already on the books? That doesn't make for good TV though. Brian Daley Al Buchanan wrote: >That you, Erick, for the reference to Ashley Bergman's memorial web page. >It's pretty scary that one, isolated incident has the potential to affect an >entire industry statewide. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 21:23:48 -0800 From: "John Coffin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Turning off Brake-Assist By opposite, I meant Brake-Assist pressurizes the system while ABS releases pressure on each brake cylinder. Both are used to apply the correct pressure to maximize the braking force at the tire. Geez, next time I'll put the formulas in the email. ;^} - -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Stan Jackson Jr. Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 8:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [uuc] Turning off Brake-Assist Not exactly. Brake-Assist is not the same as ABS nor is it the opposite of ABS. Any more than the brake calipers are the same or the opposite of ABS. They are different devices performing different functions. Brake-Assist senses when the driver *appears* to be panic braking and increases the braking force to the extent necessary to trigger the ABS. Stan > From: "John Coffin wrote: > I think some are confused. This is not ABS doing this. Mercedes has a new > feature which pressurizes the brakes (opposite of ABS) if it senses a hard > stop. Kinda of like power steering. I was wondering how this would apply > in the real world. > > Here is more info > http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_010501.htm > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:27:19 -0500 From: "Stan Jackson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Turning off Brake-Assist Now I see what you are saying, but the result is that the Brake-Assist causes the ABS to activate. Stan - ----- Original Message ----- From: John Coffin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:23 AM Subject: RE: [uuc] Turning off Brake-Assist > By opposite, I meant Brake-Assist pressurizes the system while ABS releases > pressure on each brake cylinder. Both are used to apply the correct > pressure to maximize the braking force at the tire. Geez, next time I'll > put the formulas in the email. ;^} > ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6184 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . BMW technical information, special tool sales/rental | http://www.koalamotorsport.com | |==================================================== | | Taylor BMW - http://www.taylorbmw.com - Doc Bimmer! | UUC Motorwerks . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com |__________________________________________
