[uucdigest] Thursday, March 6 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6185
_________________________________________________________________ | | Search the ARCHIVES: | http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Visit Richard Nott's Ultimate BMW Database: | http://www.bmwdatabase.com | | For all available Digest commands including unsubscribe/subscribe, | visit the BMW UUC Digest page: http://www.uucdigest.com | | Send SUBMISSIONS to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Complaints? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you must. | Technical Problems? Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: [uuc] RE: Lightenings and other Fast Fords Re: [uuc] Turning off Brake-Assist [uuc] WAS Lightnings; now RR and BMW Re: [uuc] Reconstructing Ashley Bergman's fatal collision (formerly WA state to regulate racing school [uuc] Re: laws [uuc] Re: <wob> BMWs Getting Too Complicated [uuc] '96 328i gremlins... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 21:27:02 -0800 From: John Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] RE: Lightenings and other Fast Fords > I'm curious, what does a limited slip (gear type or plate type) do for > torque steer? > First thoughts are that it would make it worse? > But then John implies FWD is better with. Okay, since the Mini is considered a BMW product, that makes discussion of FWD limited-slips on-topic for this list... FWD has some different constraints for limited-slip diffs than RWD, because anything the diff does will have an impact on steering and steering feel. A locked diff for instance is (reputedly - I've never been in one) mostly unsteerable on pavement, though they've been used in (a) drag cars (b) off-pavement rally cars and (c) some track cars with narrow tires. A traditional friction-clutch-plate type limited slip is, for FWD purposes, just a slightly less predictable version of a locked diff - as you try to steer the car you're fighting the friction of the clutch plates. There are some folks that persist with trying to use clutch-type limited slips in FWD cars, mostly because they're cheap, but they're either (a)set up so loose as to be of very limited effectiveness or (b) a b*tch to drive and wear out quickly. So, for something halfway civilized, you've got three choices: a Ferguson-type viscous diff, a Torsen/Quaife-type worm-gear torque-biasing diff, or (maybe) a Haldex/Gerodisc/Viscolok hydraulically-actuated clutch-type diff. The viscous diffs have been used in FWD applications for a long time. Ford used them in the Euro-market Escort XR3i 20 years ago. Nissan used them for a lot of FWD products including Sentra and NX2000 SE-Rs and the hotter Maximas. The benefit is that they're smooth and completely unobtrusive in operation. The disadvantage is that they have some 'lag' in operation, and the maximum lockup is limited. The worm-gear torque-biasing diffs have been around for a long time, but have only been seen in a couple production FWD applications - in the US, most commonly the Tochigi Fuji part in the Integra Type R. 6-speed Maximas can now be had with one, and the Euro-market turbo Focus RS gets a Quaife part. Quaifes are more common in the aftermarket - give them an order for 25 units and they'll tool one for your gearbag (my Taurus SHO has the second one built for the Ford/Mazda MTX-IV transaxle.) These diffs do not act to limit differences in wheel speed, as do most limited slips; instead, they're continually transferring torque away from the wheel that shows less resistance. The good - they're tremendously effective at putting power down (easily worth > 1 sec/mile off lap times in track use) and because they don't work by equalizing wheel speed and can dynamically vary the force applied at each wheel, they produce a 'throttle-steerability' not typically seen in FWD cars. The bad - because they don't act to equalize wheel speed and can dynamically vary the force applied at the tire contact patch, they can produce steering 'fight' - how much depends on scrub radius, front-end alignment, tire size, and a thousand other factors. My SHO is perfectly predictable most of the time, on damp pavement under hard acceleration the nose will 'hunt' from side to side looking for grip - but it's infinitely better than the open-diff alternative, where one wheel spins uselessly and the car doesn't move. My take, based on experience in a couple Quaifed cars: the ability to get real acceleration AND throttle-steerability out of corners is so wonderful and so atypical for FWD vehicles that I'm more than willing to put up with the other behavioral quirks. Caveat: the severity of these quirks may vary dramatically from suspension design to suspension design, and I've never driven a Quaifed Mini so can't speak for its behavior. John. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:29:44 -0500 From: "mike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Turning off Brake-Assist Uh, I would argue they are different ABS releases pressure and pumps the brakes Brake assit. applies maxium braking pressure to insure ABS starts to function Big difference there and I would say they are very different. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Jackson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 12:20 AM Subject: Re: [uuc] Turning off Brake-Assist > Ummmm, yeah sure, so long as saying that something is OPPOSITE is the same > as saying it is a different device ... > In response to the symptoms described he says, "This is not ABS doing this." > Actually, it is ABS. ABS that was triggered by the Brake-Assist. > Simply, no he did not say the same thing. > The ARTICLE on the other hand, does say almost exactly what I said. > > > Stan > > > mike wrote > > uh, didnt john say the EXACT same thing? > > > > Mike > > > - ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Stan Jackson Jr> > > > Not exactly. Brake-Assist is not the same as ABS nor is it the opposite > > of > > > ABS. Any more than the brake calipers are the same or the opposite of > > ABS. > > > They are different devices performing different functions. > > > > > > Brake-Assist senses when the driver *appears* to be panic braking and > > > increases the braking force to the extent necessary to trigger the ABS. > > > > > > Stan > > > > > > > > > > From: "John Coffin wrote: > > > > I think some are confused. This is not ABS doing this. Mercedes has > a > > > new > > > > feature which pressurizes the brakes (opposite of ABS) if it senses a > > hard > > > > stop. Kinda of like power steering. I was wondering how this would > > apply > > > > in the real world. > > > > > > > > Here is more info > > > > http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/at_010501.htm > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:52:44 -0500 From: "Dennis Liu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] WAS Lightnings; now RR and BMW Ben Keyes wrote: >RR = Range Rover. LR = Land Rover. BMW Sold LR & RR to Ford ~3 years ago when they also sold off the remains of the Austin (not Aston) Rover/ British Leyland empire. >so Ford owns Jag & LR/RR & might end up using engines from Jag in future LR/RR products. >Roll Royce used to be one big company which included Bentley, Rolls cars and also Roll Royce airplane turbine engines. then the automotive & aero parts were split. BMW bought (or took a controlling interest) in the aero business (Rolls Royce built the Vanos units for the euro 3.0l M3 engine). Rolls Royce & Bentley cars ran modified versions of the BMW 4.x liter V8 for a while, but were not that popular with their customers. then, a a few years ago (3-4, I forget) VW & BMW got into a bidding war/ standoff over who was going to to buy the Bentley & Rolls Royce car making operations. VW won the prize, but BMW pulled a fast one & got the rights to the Rolls _name_ but not the cars, so they spent several years (3 IIRC) putting together the new giant Rolls Royce that they introduced at the Detroit auto show this past January. __________ Just to clarify a wee bit. In 1971, Rolls-Royce had huge problems with a new line of jet engines. The British government came to the rescue but split the aerospace and automotive divisions into two companies. The rights to the "Rolls-Royce" trademark stayed with Rolls-Royce Plc, a publicly traded British company. Rights to the Rolls-Royce grille and Spirit of Ecstasy went to Rolls-Royce Motor Cars (Rolls-Royce Motor Cars licenses its name from Rolls-Royce Plc). In 1980, Rolls-Royce Motor Cars is acquired by Vickers Plc, a giant defence and engineering corporation. In 1990, Rolls-Royce and BMW created an airplane engine joint venture, of which Rolls-Royce took full control in 2000. This joint venture is separate from Rolls-Royce plc, the aircraft engine company. In 1994, BMW and Rolls-Royce reached an agreement for BMW to develop engines for the new line of Rolls-Royce and Bentley cars (see below). In October of 1997, Vickers Plc put Rolls-Royce Motor Cars up for sale. Because BMW has that aviation engine joint venture with Rolls-Royce Plc, everyone thinks that BMW is going to buy RRMC. In 1998, Vickers Plc formally accepted a �340 million takeover offer by BMW, but VW AG immediately made a better offer - �430 million for Rolls-Royce Motor Cars, including Bentley Motors. VW also acquired Cosworth Engineering from Vickers Plc for an additional �120 million. In 1998, in what is widely considered a huge coup, BMW acquired the rights to use the "Rolls-Royce" name and logo from Rolls-Royce Plc for �40 million, totally SCREWING VW. People laugh. BMW kindly licensed the RR name to VW until the end of 2002, as BMW doesn't actually have any cars it can sell under either the RR or Bentley names until then. Come January 1, 2003 BMW AG assumes the rights to use the Rolls-Royce marque, and coincidentally, rolls out a brand spankin' new car with that very name. No pun intended. As for the engines -- it wasn't the BMW V-8 used in the Rolls-Royce, but rather the 5.4 liter V-12. When VW bought the car company in 1998, it found itself selling English cars with BMW engines. By pure coincidence, the factory started working furiously on reintroducing the old, traditional huge V-8 with lots of turbo boost. And it also started selling Red and Green label versions, depending on whether you wanted the German V-12 or the big V-8. And, gosh, in a further coincidence, management spread the word to the motoring press that buyers really demanded a return of the turbo V-8, because they found the V-12 lacking in torque. Hmmmm.... And now Ford finds itself selling an "English" luxury vehicle, complete with a BMW engine. That's got to be some sort of record -- in the fall of 2002, you could actually buy three luxury vehicles from three totally separate car companies -- but all three vehicles are powered by the smallest of the three, the Bavarian Motor Works. vty, - --Dennis . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 00:59:14 -0500 From: "Stan Jackson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Reconstructing Ashley Bergman's fatal collision (formerly WA state to regulate racing school I'm not sure whether the legislation enacted is even constitutional. A Racing School is a private event being held on private property. So long as the activity is not illegal, and is not public, I'm not sure there is anything the state can do. Anyone else? Stan > From: Brian Daley wrote: > > Yeah it's scary, especially considering that nothing I've seen so far > suggests that any kind of regulation would have prevented the accident. > Until I read the web page I assumed that the accident resulted from > some kind of negligence or failure on the part of the racing school - > that doesn't seem to be the case. Kinda reminds me of the people who > wanted to force skiiers to wear helmets after Sonny Bono and > what's-his-name Kennedy died in skiing accidents within a couple weeks > of each other. Of course politicians are much less interested in > actually solving problems than in creating the appearance that they're > taking action to solve the problem. Of course they can never admit that > more laws can't solve every problem in life. Look at the recent DC > sniper case. The politicians were all screaming for more gun laws. How > about making a serious effort to enforce the hundreds (thousands?) of > gun laws already on the books? That doesn't make for good TV though. > > Brian Daley > > Al Buchanan wrote: > > >That you, Erick, for the reference to Ashley Bergman's memorial web page. > >It's pretty scary that one, isolated incident has the potential to affect an > >entire industry statewide. > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 23:08:56 -0700 From: "Tim Pfister" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: laws Laws are for the law-abiding. Criminals,by definition, don't care what the law says. "Gun control means using both hands" Tim Pfister ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 22:55:04 -0800 (PST) From: John Bolhuis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] Re: <wob> BMWs Getting Too Complicated On Wed, 5 Mar 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > By the time you buy a '98 car, its climate control will have bit the dust > ;-) hey, THERE's something Alex and I agree on! :) - -- "It is an honor to be Cookie Monster." -Sesame Street spokeswoman Audrey Shapiro ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 01:31:01 -0600 From: Peter Schami <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] '96 328i gremlins... Hi all, Last summer I bought a '96 328i w/ ASC replacing my '94 318i. Car was real clean with low miles. I'm now having some "minor" issues that I'd like to ask the group about. The ABS+ASC lights come on everyonce in a while. I think I lose ABS but not ASC (not sure). Anyway, little research lead me to the gray ABS relay in the fuse box. Does that sound right? The problem is intermittent but I see it at least a couple times a week. I now get "Check Coolant" warning from the computer. I did, and the levels are fine and there are no leaks. Temperature gauge in the center. Does anyone know if the sensors have been a problem on these models? Lastly I'm changing swaybars this weekend (rear from an '97 M3 and fronts from a Z coupe), do I need new bolts or can I re-use the existing ones. Thanks for the help. Peter '96 328i ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6185 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . BMW technical information, special tool sales/rental | http://www.koalamotorsport.com | |==================================================== | | Taylor BMW - http://www.taylorbmw.com - Doc Bimmer! | UUC Motorwerks . http://www.uucmotorwerks.com |__________________________________________
