[uucdigest] Friday, June 20 2003 Volume 03 : Number 6489
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Send 'em to [EMAIL PROTECTED] |__________________________________________________________________ In this BMW UUC Digest: RE: [uuc] Re: installing gauges in an E30 RE: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 [uuc] <E30> Follow up wheel questions RE: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 RE: [uuc] <E30> Follow up wheel questions ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:17:11 -0400 From: "Chamberlain, Jesse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Re: installing gauges in an E30 Andre, The oil pressure sender for the S52 engine (and M50/S50/M52 also) is located right behind the oil filter canister, and screws into it. I believe that the S54 engine might be similar, but I'm not sure about that. I actually made my own oil distribution block for adding multiple oil senders to that one oil port on the S52/M52/S50/M50 engines. If anyone wants one, I have a few already made. :) Thanks Jesse Chamberlain - -----Original Message----- From: Andre Yew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [uuc] Re: installing gauges in an E30 On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Well, I don't know how much of this applies to an E46. But I had the drain > plug sender when I had gauges on my '87 325is. The wires hang low and > could get caught on high obstacles as you drive over them. Every time you > remove the plug to drain the oil, you have to deal with the wires. After a > few years the wiring might have to be re-done. I've heard there are issues > with not being able to the sufficient torque on the fragile plug to crush > the crush washer. Scott, thanks for the info --- that makes a lot of sense. Does anyone know where the senders for the S52 and S54 engines live? That may be more relevant for later models. - --Andre ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:21:29 -0400 From: "Money, Jack (J.J.)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 <<oh? different temps? cause the pad compound is generally the same front and rear. so you'd want it to be the same temp front and rear. probably something you'd want to consider when designing a braking system for something like track use.>> Unless you're using a proportioning valve or can change calipers/brake set ups over stock, I still find it odd to use the same pads front and rear because of temp/usage differences. I have never run the same pad front and rear on my race car (formerly a stock class E30 M3). Well, I tried it once....very bad results, horrible balance, terrible push, no ability to trail brake, very touchy under tap and go situations. Not good. And the ONLY variable during this "testing" was pads. Once I went back to a biased set up (higher torque/heat range pad on the front) the car was instantly back to neutral balance. I can certainly see that with a fully adjustable suspension one could "adjust" out any handling issues but I can't see why one would use the suspension adjustment to correct for brake imbalance. And in my case I have absolutely no reason to use more of a rear pad, just not necessary. If the car was perfectly balanced under braking I can see optimizing the pad usage but I just can't believe that people do this. Perfectly balanced under max braking means a compromise when off the brakes....such as acceleration! I don't claim to be a vehicle dynamics expert but I certainly have training and work related experience. It has been awhile since I've done all the math though....might have to revisit this. Regarding all this discussion of brake bias and possible solutions, I did not see you mention it specifically but I assume in all your calculations you have determined what your weight transfer is under braking - especially if you have altered the suspension. And of course it will be different under different braking conditions as well as different road conditions as Gary noted. I suppose you have calculated it using max braking and will settle for the compromise at less that max. Care to discuss it further? Jack Money '89 325iX #86 JP M3 Elephant Motorsports ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:46:36 -0400 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 Michael wrote: >problem that i am trying to overcome is mostly the balance issue. i want to >stop faster. stopping faster will require using all 4 tires to their limit. >not just the fronts to their limit with the rears kinda just *along for the >ride*. next aspect will be brake cooling. Out of curiosity what brake pads are you currently using and what tires? Not that altering the brake bias/rotor size/caliper/piston size isn't going to work but I've rarely seen where brake pad choice/tire choice and as you mentioned cooling doesn't solve all braking problems. If you're having problems on the street you must be a mad man behind that wheel! :-) >From experience though I followed an E34 M5 at Mid-Ohio and I don't know what he's using for brakes but he was honking along for such a big car. Perhaps he was a horsepower mods type of person though, he would pull away from me on the back straight. >*I guess in general I'm more of a "small brakes with big ducts" kind of >guy. I think we're all in that boat unless you're Powell. <g> Carlos 91 M3 using Bimmerworld backing plates, ducting, Goodridge ss lines, Hawk HT-10s up front and Hawk Blues in the rear, Castrol SRF brake fluid, calipers rebuilt often. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:50:38 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 Yes, that is one consideration. Both mass and cooling should be proportional. For light braking, which is 99% of braking, the proportion should be closer to the weight distribution. One needs to choose where to operate. Gary Derian > > oh? different temps? cause the pad compound is generally the same front and > rear. so you'd want it to be the same temp front and rear. probably > something you'd want to consider when designing a braking system for > something like track use. > > -Michael McCoy > > > > Gary Derian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 08:53:59 -0400 From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 Go karts will understeer like a pig (do pigs understeer?) during trail braking. The reason is they have a very short wheelbase, and a very wide track, and no differential. The rear tires will keep a kart going straight. To corner well, a kart needs to lift the inside rear tire. This necessitates a rather abrupt corner entry compared to a car. Much kart corner entry braking comes from slip angle, rather than straight braking. With slip angle, all 4 tires can effectively brake the vehicle. Gary Derian > trailbraking is acceptable in go karts. especially in decreasing radius > turns. remember that since the fronts are not contributing any braking force > ever, they can always provide maximum cornering grip when called for. just > need to balance the rear. rear can be balanced with throttle, or brake, or > lack of throttle, or lack of brake. rears often have significantly more grip > overall than the fronts, mostly due to them generally being bigger tires > with more weight on them... even when braking. > > -Michael McCoy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:32 PM > Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 > > > > One does not trailbrake a go kart. There are several reasons. > > > > Gary Derian > > > > > > > Michael wrote: > > > >go look at a go cart. (non-shifter cart, cause shifter carts are > allowed > > > brakes at 4 wheels.) > > > >100% brake bias to the rear. not too problematic. yes you could stop > > > faster with brakes on all > > > >4 corners, but for one thats illegal in these classes > > > > > > We have some of those here in Detroit, ~5-6hp Honda motors, real kart > > > chassis and > > > only rear brakes. I'm not terribly fond of the rear only brakes, for > one > > > you can't > > > just stand on the brake pedal or you may spin, you definitely have to be > > > really > > > careful trailbraking into a corner. I've also driven an '89 Carrera on > > the > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 10:01:27 -0400 From: John Sabatini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [uuc] <E30> Follow up wheel questions Thanks for all the replies to my wheel questions. Looks like I am going with the "ugly" Kosei K1's. For the next question, what brand and what size tire? I am thinking about the Toyo Proxes T1-S since I have been very happy with the Toyo Proxes H4's. I think I am looking for a combination street/track tire. But I am not ruling out a street tire for the Kosei's and a track tire on the stock basketweaves. Looking for further recommendations from this great list. Thanks again! John Sabatini '90 325is ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 07:50:27 -0700 From: "Marco Romani" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 A nice trick is to lean outside of the turn, it's counter intuitive for people that only have bike experience. But you'll hook up better in a kart leaning to the outside. marco - -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gary Derian Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 5:54 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 Go karts will understeer like a pig (do pigs understeer?) during trail braking. The reason is they have a very short wheelbase, and a very wide track, and no differential. The rear tires will keep a kart going straight. To corner well, a kart needs to lift the inside rear tire. This necessitates a rather abrupt corner entry compared to a car. Much kart corner entry braking comes from slip angle, rather than straight braking. With slip angle, all 4 tires can effectively brake the vehicle. Gary Derian > trailbraking is acceptable in go karts. especially in decreasing radius > turns. remember that since the fronts are not contributing any braking force > ever, they can always provide maximum cornering grip when called for. just > need to balance the rear. rear can be balanced with throttle, or brake, or > lack of throttle, or lack of brake. rears often have significantly more grip > overall than the fronts, mostly due to them generally being bigger tires > with more weight on them... even when braking. > > -Michael McCoy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Derian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 10:32 PM > Subject: Re: [uuc] Brake upgrades for E34 525 > > > > One does not trailbrake a go kart. There are several reasons. > > > > Gary Derian > > > > > > > Michael wrote: > > > >go look at a go cart. (non-shifter cart, cause shifter carts are > allowed > > > brakes at 4 wheels.) > > > >100% brake bias to the rear. not too problematic. yes you could stop > > > faster with brakes on all > > > >4 corners, but for one thats illegal in these classes > > > > > > We have some of those here in Detroit, ~5-6hp Honda motors, real kart > > > chassis and > > > only rear brakes. I'm not terribly fond of the rear only brakes, for > one > > > you can't > > > just stand on the brake pedal or you may spin, you definitely have to be > > > really > > > careful trailbraking into a corner. I've also driven an '89 Carrera on > > the > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 11:07:03 -0400 From: "Robinson, Lee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [uuc] <E30> Follow up wheel questions The T1-S is a great tire. Good in the rain, even monsoons. Last forever. However, they aren't the best handling tire. I use the T1-S on my M3 & the FZ4 on my Saabs. The FZ4 is even a better tire if you can find fitment. Last even longer while not giving up that much traction. I think you'll find it better, both performance-wise & financially, to run street tires on the street & track tires on the track. I can put a decent set of street tires (T1-S) & Kumho track tires on my E30 M3 for less than one set of those ultra-high or Max performance tires, which will wear out quickly on the track. I don't think the Koseis are ugly. If they were powder coated anthacite, I think they'd look really good on my silver car.....just waiting fro Tim Ng to burn the tires off his so I can requisition them. Lee > -----Original Message----- > From: John Sabatini [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 10:01 AM > To: BMW UUC Digest > Subject: [uuc] <E30> Follow up wheel questions > > > Thanks for all the replies to my wheel questions. Looks like > I am going > with the "ugly" Kosei K1's. > > For the next question, what brand and what size tire? I am > thinking about > the Toyo Proxes T1-S since I have been very happy with the > Toyo Proxes H4's. > I think I am looking for a combination street/track tire. > But I am not > ruling out a street tire for the Kosei's and a track tire on the stock > basketweaves. Looking for further recommendations from this > great list. > > Thanks again! > > John Sabatini > '90 325is > ------------------------------ End of [uucdigest] V3 #6489 *************************** | | In memory of Michel Potheau - friend, enthusiast, founder of the BMW CCA. |________________________________________ | Please visit these UUC-approved BMW parts vendors/service providers: | (listed alphabetically) | | Autoscope-Motorsports - http://www.autoscope-motorsports.com | |==================================================== | | Koala MotorSport . 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